http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2004/spring/khenpo_tsultrim.html
An interview with Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche
Melvin McLeod: Rinpoche, you are one of the leading teachers
of Mahamudra, the highest philosophy and practice of the Kagyü
school of Tibetan Buddhism. Would you describe the Mahamudra view
of the nature of mind?
Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche: In Mahamudra there are three
traditions: sutra Mahamudra, mantra Mahamudra and essence
Mahamudra.
The sutra tradition of Mahamudra encompasses both the second and
third turnings of the wheel of dharma [the teachings on emptiness
and buddhanature, respectively]. According to the second turning of
the wheel, the true nature of mind is beyond conceptual
fabrication. That means it cannot be described as being existent or
nonexistent, as being something or nothing, or as being permanent
or impermanent. Mind cannot be described or conceptualized in any
of these ways: the nature of mind is beyond all conceptual
fabrication. Then, according to the third turning of the wheel of
dharma, which are the teachings on buddhanature such as the
Uttaratantrashastra,[i] the true nature of mind is
described as luminous clarity. This is the enlightened essence of
the buddhanature, completely free from any stain, completely free
from any imperfection or flaw. This luminosity is inseparable from
emptiness. So the true nature of mind is described as the union of
clarity and emptiness.
The mantra tradition of Mahamudra explains that the true nature
of mind is bliss and emptiness inseparable. This is something that
one meditates on after having received empowerments,
abhishekas, to do so. By receiving the empowerments and
putting the methods into practice, one can realize this
bliss-emptiness, which is the true nature of mind.
Finally, there is the tradition of essence Mahamudra, in which
the true nature of mind is called thamel gyi shepa, or
ordinary mind. Ordinary mind means that one is taught that there is
no need to change anything about the mind. One doesn't need to fix
it in any way. One doesn't need to stop anything from happening or
make anything new happen. The true nature of mind is beyond
artifice and fabrication.
The essence tradition of Mahamudra does not depend on the
scriptures or reasonings of sutra and mantra Mahamudra. In the
essence tradition, the teacher points out the nature of the
student’s mind, based on the student's own experience and how the
student is relating to appearances at the time. It's a direct
transmission. Just reading it in a book isn't enough. You have to
have great faith in the teacher and then the teacher can point out
the nature of mind. So if somebody wants to examine the nature of
their mind and have it introduced to them, they should request
instructions from a teacher in whom they have great faith. Then the
lama will give them the pointing-out instruction, and it's possible
that they'll recognize the nature of mind.
If the student develops certainty that the mind is free from
coming and going, free from arising, abiding and ceasing, then the
student is said to have recognized the nature of mind. That doesn't
mean that the student has direct realization experience; in this
context realization means to have certainty.
If people read the story of Milarepa's encounter with the
shepherd boy, Repa Sangye Kyap [see page xx], they will have an
idea of what the pointing out is like between the student and the
teacher.
Besides direct transmission from teacher to student, what
are the methods or meditations used to realize the nature of
mind?
If people want to learn how to investigate the nature of their
mind, they should understand that there are different ways to do
it. For example, in the sutra tradition of Mahamudra, there is the
way of investigating the nature of mind that is in harmony with the
second turning of the wheel of dharma and the way that is in
harmony with the third turning of the wheel.
If you wanted to learn about investigating the mind according to
the second turning, then you should read The Sun of
Wisdom.[ii] All of the methods for
investigating emptiness that are taught in that book can be applied
to the mind. The difference is that the meditation technique is in
accord with Mahamudra. The investigations are the same, but the way
you meditate once you've done the investigations is in accord with
the Mahamudra instructions on how to meditate.
When you investigate according to the third turning of the wheel
of dharma, what you determine is that the true nature of mind is
luminous clarity, free from any stain. There is a verse in the
Uttaratantrashastra, the treatise on the buddhanature,
which says, "The true nature of mind that is luminous clarity is
unchanging like space. There are fleeting stains, but these are
only temporary and not existent in the essence of mind."
That's the whole key to the third turning—to see that the basic
nature of mind is luminosity and emptiness, and that that is not
made imperfect or obscured in its essence by anything. The only
things that prevent us from seeing the true nature of mind are
fleeting stains. They are not truly existent; the stains have no
essence of their own and therefore they can be removed.
After analyzing according to either the second or third turning,
the way to meditate is the same: that is, to rest and relax in your
own basic nature. According to the second turning, you determine
that the true nature of mind is free from conceptual fabrications
and you just let go and relax within that. According to the third
turning, you determine that the true nature of mind is luminosity
and emptiness, and you just let go and relax within that.
That looks quite enjoyable, if Rinpoche's expression is any
indication.
If it is enjoyable, there is still no attachment to that
enjoyment. If there is relaxation, there is no attachment to that
relaxation.
Many Western Buddhists of all traditions have read the songs
of Milarepa. We've been inspired and fascinated by them, but do not
necessarily see them as teachings that we can apply to our own
practice. You teach extensively on the stories and songs of
Milarepa; you've even had them retranslated and set to
Western-style music. Among all the sources from the Tibetan
tradition available to you, why do you emphasize the teachings of
Milarepa?
Milarepa was the greatest siddha in Tibet. Out of all the
realized masters who lived in Tibet, Milarepa was the greatest. He
attained buddhahood in one life with one body: he purified the
stains of nadi, prana and bindu[iii] and attained perfect
enlightenment.
Milarepa was called the pandit, the learned one. What was he
learned about? The definitive meaning, which he expressed in his
songs. So when you use his songs as a basis for listening,
reflecting and meditating, you have a profound and subtle support
for developing your knowledge.
Before we used to sing individual songs, but now we sing the
songs together with their stories. We have about eleven or twelve
chapters translated, and a lot of them are about Milarepa's
encounters with his students, particularly his female students, who
became realized themselves. These chapters are all wonderful aids
for our practice. These days, people like to study and to meditate,
but they also need teachings that are concise. The great thing
about these chapters is that they each tell the complete story of
Milarepa and one particular disciple or group of disciples. They
give the whole path from beginning to end, from when the students
first meet Milarepa, describing what their encounter is like, to
what happens as they practice and as Milarepa gives them more and
more instruction. So in each chapter there is a complete path. And
the songs are so profound. Look at just one song, like "The
Authentic Portrait of the Middle Way" [see page XX], and see how
much is actually in there. It's amazing.
As we sang last night, "E ma, the phenomena of the three realms
of samsara, while not existing they appear, how incredibly
amazing." It's only two lines, but if you know the meaning of those
two lines, their application is vast.
The translations of these songs and stories that we're
generally familiar with are couched in high philosophical language.
One of the things I find interesting—and effective—is that you've
had them translated into straightforward, colloquial language.
Because when you think about it, these songs were sung often to
illiterate people and in the popular tunes of their day.
Yes, that's right. That's how Milarepa actually sang them, in
words that were easy and that people could understand. And actually
singing the songs gives special power, because Milarepa himself
sang them. When we sing them we are relating to them in the same
way that Milarepa and his own students did. That brings the power
of blessing and the power of connection.
It seems to me that you are devoting yourself to trying to
establish a genuine and complete Buddhist yogic tradition in the
West. What is the essence of the path of the tantric yogi?
The essence of the yogic tradition is that disturbing emotions
and suffering are not to be abandoned; rather, one should meditate
on their true nature. In that way, they are self-liberated, because
suffering and the disturbing emotions are self-arisen and
self-liberated. Therefore, one needs to train in the understanding
of what it means to be self-arisen and self-liberated, in the
meditation that is self-arisen and self-liberated, and in the
conduct that is self-arisen and self-liberated. That's the whole
point. Do you understand?
No. [Laughter.] Well, the question then is how one trains in
that.
To understand the principle of self-arisen and self-liberated,
you must train in the profound view of Mahamudra, the profound
meditation of Mahamudra, and then connect everything you do with
that.
For example, if you are very tired and your mind is heavy and
dark, you don't abandon that. Instead you sleep and you meditate on
the true nature of sleep, which is luminosity. The great siddha
Lavapa meditated by sleeping on the side of the road for twelve
years, and in that way realized Mahamudra. The whole time he was
sleeping he was actually meditating in luminous clarity.
If you have certainty in the profound view of Mahamudra, you'll
know what self-arisen and self-liberated means, and you'll delight
in meditating. When you gain direct experience, direct realization,
then you are really a yogi or a yogini. Then you actually manifest
as self-arisen and self-liberated.
So the principle is that there are specific techniques by
which every state of mind can be meditated upon and brought to the
path.
That's right. When you are skillful and use the methods, then
all states of mind can be your friend. All states of mind can be
your friend in realizing that the true nature of mind is
self-arisen and self-liberated, that all states of mind are
actually the same—self-arisen and self-liberated.
You place a strong emphasis on study, particularly on the
reasonings of Nagarjuna and Chandrakirti and the other philosophers
of Madhyamaka. How does that kind of thinking lead to realization
that is ultimately non-conceptual?
One does not need to abandon thoughts. One does not need to make
thoughts go away, because thoughts in their essence are self-arisen
and self-liberated. According to the second turning of the wheel of
dharma, just as thoughts arise, they are nothing other than the
freedom from conceptual fabrications. Their true nature is beyond
concept—as they appear and as they are liberated, their true nature
is beyond concept. According to the third turning, as thoughts
arise, they are the nature of luminous clarity. Just as they arise
and just as they are liberated, they are of the nature of luminous
clarity. And according to mantra Mahamudra, as thoughts arise,
their nature is bliss-emptiness, and as they are liberated, their
nature is bliss and emptiness.
The mistake comes when we hear the word "nonconceptual" and
think there is some difference between conceptual and
nonconceptual. Then you think you have to eliminate thoughts, but
that's a mistake. The point is to realize the true nature of
thoughts. The point is to bring thoughts to the path. Thoughts are
the friend of your practice when you can meditate on their
essential nature. If you can't do that you're in trouble, because
you think you need to get into a nonconceptual state, but thoughts
are going to keep arising.
The whole point of Mahamudra is to see the true nature of the
thoughts. That's what Mahamudra is—it's nothing other than the true
nature of thoughts. When you can see that, then thoughts are your
friends.
Mahamudra is the practice of not abandoning thoughts, not
abandoning appearances, not abandoning disturbing emotions, not
abandoning suffering, but bringing all these to the path and
realizing that their true nature is self-arisen and
self-liberated.
When I trained in Tibet, I did so mostly in mountain retreats,
in caves and in charnel grounds. What I practiced when I was in
charnel grounds was bringing thoughts and appearances of demons to
the path. Sometimes at night I had thoughts of demons and saw
frightening demons, so I meditated on the true nature of that and
that became my path. When I was living in the caves in the
mountains, I trained in the self-liberation of all thoughts. I
trained in recognizing the true nature of the meeting of appearance
and mind. In that way, the meeting of appearance and mind becomes
self-liberated.
What does "self-liberated" mean?
The analogy is often used of a wave coming up and dissolving
back into the ocean. That's a good analogy, but how it actually is
is something you have to experience for yourself. As Drogan
Sombuyagada said, "When you see on a beautifully bright, clear
ocean, with waves coming up and going back down into the ocean,
don't you know that this is the lama teaching you that thoughts are
dharmakaya?" Self-arisen and self-liberated means that when the
thought arises, it's like a wave coming up from the ocean of
luminous clarity. And it dissolves back into that luminous clarity.
It never leaves being of the nature of luminous clarity, just like
a wave never leaves the ocean.
That means, basically, that whatever appears is always
luminosity. For example, your thoughts don't come from anywhere and
they don't go anywhere. But, at the same time, they appear and they
manifest. So that appearance, that arising, is called self-arising
and self-liberation because it's nothing other than luminosity
itself that's liberated.
[Sings] "Thoughts don't come from anywhere and they don't go
anywhere, so how could they be anything other than self-arisen and
self-liberated? Just like waves on the ocean." That's how it
is.
Milarepa said that the thoughts and appearances of demons are
self-arisen and self-liberated. The way he said that was, "What
appears as, is perceived as, and is thought of as a ghost—whenever
these appear, from the yogi they appear, and whenever they
dissolve, into the yogi they dissolve."
Fear arises in us all the time—it is a fundamental building
block of samsara—yet fear is not often addressed as a spiritual
issue. How do we work with our fear?
The way to work with fear is as follows: See that thoughts of
fear neither come nor go. See that thoughts of fear neither arise
nor cease. Then look at the essence beyond coming and going, beyond
arising and ceasing; look at this essence and let go and relax.
When I was sleeping in the charnel grounds and I was afraid of
demons, I meditated on the true nature of that fear. Even now I
send some students to the charnel grounds and I tell them to
meditate like that. That's good.
If you don't realize its true nature, fear causes lots of
problems. If you do realize its true nature, fear is great because
it gives you a very sharp awareness of the self-arisen and
self-liberated. It gives you a wonderful opportunity to meditate on
the true nature of mind.
Anger is another one that is good, because anger is very strong
and it gives your mind a lot of power. So if you meditate on the
true nature of anger when it arises and recognize it as self-arisen
and self-liberated, then your anger dissolves and you're left in
the true nature of anger, which is bright and clear luminosity.
That's great.
In Tibet, there were yogis and yoginis who lived together and
they fought a lot with each other. On the outside it looked like
they were fighting, but actually what they were doing was using
their interaction as a method to meditate on the true nature of
anger.
Many Western Buddhists are confused about how to react when
they see their spiritual leaders fighting politically, or acting in
other ways that don't seem to be in accord with the dharma. Your
own Kagyü school has been riven by political struggle in recent
years, but this is something no community or school of Buddhism is
free of. How do students react to this so that their sense of
devotion and faith is not weakened?
In that situation people should know that what appears is just
that—it's just an appearance. It's not the way things really are.
In the true nature of reality there is no conflict. The true nature
of reality transcends conflict, and therefore what appears is a
mere appearance—like a dream, like a rainbow, like a moon reflected
in the water. That's what people should know.
The heads of the lineages in Tibetan Buddhism are emanations
[tulkus]. In fact, such an emanation is one of the examples the
Buddha gave for appearance and emptiness, because emanations are
not truly existent. So we should especially keep that in mind—that
an emanation is the very example of appearance and emptiness, of an
empty form.
So therefore when the emanation lamas fight, or appear to fight
[laughs], we should know that it's just a mere appearance. Because
they are emanations, they don't truly exist; they are appearance
and emptiness. Therefore the fighting is appearance and emptiness.
It is not real; it is dependently-arisen mere appearance.
When the great lamas fight, since it is just a fight among
emanations, know that it has no inherent nature. Know that it is a
superficial, relative reality, just a dependently-arisen mere
appearance. There's nothing else you need to think about it besides
that.
Rinpoche, thank you very much. I thought I was going to do
an interview, but I got a teaching on Mahamudra. Thank
you.
Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche was born in eastern Tibet
in 1934. After completing his early study of Mahayana texts he
roamed the charnel grounds and caves of central Tibet for five
years practicing Chöd. He received pointing-out instructions from
the Sixteenth Karmapa and stayed in the caves around Tsurphu for a
year, continuing his Chöd practice and receiving teachings from
Dilyak Drupon Rinpoche, the retreat master of Tsurphu. Later, while
he was in retreat south of Lhasa, a group of nuns asked for his
help dealing with the Chinese. Subsequently he led the nuns to
safety in India; many of them still study with him today.
In India, Khenpo Tsultrim received the khenpo degree from
the Karmapa and the geshe lharampa degree from the Dalai Lama,
recognizing his high attainment in debate and logic. In the late
1970's he traveled to Europe at the request of the Karmapa, and
since then he has traveled and taught tirelessly, becoming renowned
for his skill in debate, his spontaneous songs and his ability to
present the most profound teachings of Vajrayana Buddhism in a
clear, accessible, and lively way.
This interview was translated by Ari Goldfield.
[i]One of the five
treatises said to have been dictated to Asanga (circa fourth
century C.E.) by the bodhisattva Maitreya, the
Uttaratantrashastra is one of the main texts to lay out
the understanding of buddhanature. In 2000, it was published with
commentary by Jamgön Kongtrul the Great and Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso
under the title Buddha Nature.
[ii]The Sun of
Wisdom, published in 2003, is Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso’s
commentary on the classic second century Madhyamika text by
Nagarjuna, the Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way. He
uses Mipham the Great’s commentary as a guide.
[iii] According to
advanced yogic understanding, in the illusory body,
mind-consciousness rides on the prana (literally means
wind), which travels through pathways, nadi. The
bindu (drop, as in dew-drop) is understood as mind’s
nourishment. When these three are impure, it signifies that one is
caught in the duality of subject and object. When they are
purified, body, speech and mind are completely synchronized and
emerge in their indestructible (vajra) nature.
From "See the True Nature, then Let Go and Relax in That," an
interview with Khenpo Tsultrim Gyamtso Rinpoche. Buddhadharma:
The Practitioner's Quarterly, Spring 2004.