The Experience of No-Self

last SG · 2009-08-27T16:51:55+00:00

from science point of view, eye and ear sense has it limitation. There is ultra viloet rays. can it be seen? There are sound beyond our hearing. can our ear...

JitKiat SG

When Arhat listens to a beautiful song, it does not mean it is unpleasant. It could be like wind blowing past, without stirring emotion or desire. At the end of song, there is no clinging to the memory too.

What is important is Arhats will not have a single selfish thought no matter what happens. For normal person like me, when someone scolds me, I feel hurt straightaway (becos somehow I fell there is an "I" that get hurt).

An Eternal Now SG

Whether Arhants have mental factors is of no concern -- since whatever manifests just self-liberates on their own accord when there is Anatta, no Self to detach or attach to things -- there is only phenomena arising and subsiding with nobody behind doing or observing them.

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"...it seems that lots of effort need to be put in -- which is really not the case. The entire practice turns out to an undoing process. It is a process of gradually understanding the workings of our nature that is from beginning liberated but clouded by this sense of ‘self’ that is always trying to preserve, protect and ever attached. The entire sense of self is a ‘doing’. Whatever we do, positive or negative, is still doing. Ultimately there is not-even a letting go or let be, as there is already continuous dissolving and arising and this ever dissolving and arising turns out to be self-liberating. Without this ‘self’ or ‘Self’, there is no ‘doing’, there is only spontaneous arising. Smile "

~ our forummer, Thusness (source: Non-dual and karmic patterns)

"...When one is unable to see the truth of our nature, all letting go is nothing more than another from of holding in disguise. Therefore without the 'insight', there is no releasing.... it is a gradual process of deeper seeing. when it is seen, the letting go is natural. You cannot force urself into giving up the self... purification to me is always these insights... non-dual and emptiness nature...."

~ Thusness
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From a pure insight practice point of view, you can’t ever fundamentally “let go” of anything, so I sometimes wish the popularity of this misleading and indifference-prod

Then the venerable Sariputra said to the goddess, "Goddess, how long have you been in this house?"

The goddess replied, "I have been here as long as the elder has been in liberation."

Sariputra said, "Then, have you been in this house for quite some time?"

The goddess said, "Has the elder been in liberation for quite some time?"

At that, the elder Sariputra fell silent.

The goddess continued, "Elder, you are 'foremost of the wise!' Why do you not speak? Now, when it is your turn, you do not answer the question."

Sariputra: Since liberation is inexpressible, goddess, I do not know what to say.

Goddess: All the syllables pronounced by the elder have the nature of liberation. Why? Liberation is neither internal nor external, nor can it be apprehended apart from them. Likewise, syllables are neither internal nor external, nor can they be apprehended anywhere else. Therefore, reverend Sariputra, do not point to liberation by abandoning speech! Why? The holy liberation is the equality of all things!

Sariputra: Goddess, is not liberation the freedom from desire, hatred, and folly?

Goddess: "Liberation is freedom from desire, hatred, and folly" that is the teaching of the excessively proud. But those free of pride are taught that the very nature of desire, hatred, and folly is itself liberation.

~ Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra

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"Good sons, all hindrances are none other than ultimate enlightenment. Whether you attain mindfulness or lose mindfulness, there is no non-liberation. Establishing the Dharma and refuting the Dharma are both called nirvana; wisdom and folly are equally prajna; the method that is perfected by bodhisattvas and false teachers is the same bodhi; ignorance and suchness are not different realms; morality, concentration and wisdom, as well as desire, hatred and ignorance are all divine practices; sentient beings and lands share the same dharma nature; hell and heaven are both the Pure Land; those having Buddha-nature and those not having it equally accomplish the Buddha's enlightenment. All defilements are ultimately liberation. The reality-realms's ocean-like wisdom completely illumines all marks to be just like empty space. This is called 'the Tathāgata's accordance with the nature of enlightenment.' "

~ The Sutra of Perfect Enlightenment

An Eternal Now SG

A nice post by someone called 'Kannada' (who clearly realised anatta in direct experience) from Zen Forum International:

Hi Carol,

Thanks for your comment.

Yes, the Hindus call it "Hridya Granthi" - The knot of the Heart... I no longer refer to 'realities' or 'absolutes' - there aren't any - for me anyway.

I hope you don't think I'm preaching... I used to think all this nirvana 'no self' / 'no other' thing was so complicated, then oneday in the midst of 'doing' it occured to me that there was just a 'doing', it wasn't 'me' that was doing, it wasn't anything doing, just action - plain, pure and simple. The problem was that thought would jump into the activity. It would say that 'I' was sweeping the floors, or washing the dishes or whatever. Thought would not only define 'me' but it would define what was done and the process involved.

After learning to drop thought (by paying attention to the space between thoughts) all this naming ceased to be, no sweeper or washer, no sweeping or washing, no thing swept or washed, just peace where all activity continues unhindered and undefined. It seems to be a default setting for us humans to overlay existence or life with a continuous running commentary, an everlasting set of definitions just in case we may cease to be if the definitions fall silent.

I don't try to figure it out anymore, I don't think in terms of Dharma or nirvana or reality or work toward a goal - Buddhist or otherwise, it is far less of a hassle to drop it all, to give up the continuous mental machinations and simply leave it be - enough is enough. Of course the curse of over-thinking (uninvited thought) still arises but now there's an escape route, a knowing of what need be done when it all gets too much.

I wouldn't call it 'nirvana', Theravadin or Zen, but it is a cessation of sorts, and a very nice one at that...

Regards

k

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Roughly speaking, the difference between Heart and Mind is that the mind is the seat of conditionality whereby conceptuality subdivides perceptions into 'subject' and 'object', 'this' and 'that', 'self' and 'other', it is Awareness with differentiation or conditionality. The Heart however is that Pure Awareness with no differentiation - the 'unconditioned'. Living experience, without mind-created conditions, without an imagined 'I' standing in contradistinction to the imagined 'other', allows the senses a clarity that is altogether absent through the thick fog of conceptuality. The practitioner discovers for him/herself a sense of lightness, clarity, freedom and peace that was missing in the darkness of delusion.

The question "how can I not attach to the experience" is somewhat misdirected (a common problem indeed), for it assumes an 'I' to whom the experience occurs, an 'I' (the product of delusion) that desires to manage attachment to an experience whereby the fog of delusion temporarily lifts and delusion temporarily ceases. Attachment to conditionality would be a more likely candidate as a cause of suffering. The cessation of suffering is the cessation of the 'I' (that wishes to manage meditation experiences). The characteristics of this 'I' is of course greed, aversion and delusion...

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Cessation is merely the cessation of that which never existed except in the imagination. Dropping the self/other notions does not leave a cold lifeless, emotionless shell. It simply removes the imaginary ownership of arisings. Feelings of warmth, love, caring etc still arise but as ownerless processes untill their antecedent causes (as samskaras and vasanas) subside. The imaginary notion that a self is responsible for these arisings is completely erroneous.

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Awakening is a delusory notion centred on the belief that there is someone to awaken.

Awakening is awakening to the fact that there is no-one to awaken.

Seeing without the seer

Hearing without the hearer

Tasting without the taster etc

Perception without the notions of seeing, hearing, tasting etc

Neither 'I' nor 'other'

Sgforumposter SG

Does it mean also that it is neutral ? Many believed, wrongly, that an arahant do not have likes and dislikes or do not have experience of pleasant or unpleasant. An incident will perhaps clarify the capacity of a Buddha or an arahant.

Buddha was walking with ananda one evening. When they reached the padi field Buddha exclaimed that it was indeed very beautiful and they stopped to appreciate the splendour of nature. Ananda then suggested that the image of the padi fields with the red setting sun reflected by the padi field be used as the image on the monks frock.

So if an Arahant do not have a single selfish thought and when they scolded you or being mean to you they are doing it out of compassion for you ? Or do you think that an arahant is not capable of being "mean" ?

JitKiat SG

Actually, mean is relative. If your kid is naughty, to teach him a lesson, you punish him to stand at the corner for 5 minutes. To him, he may feel that you are mean. But are you really mean? By achieving emptiness of self, Arhat has completed got rid of greed, anger and ignorance ... they do not have even sexual desire

JitKiat SG

And one of the Buddha's 10 disciples, Mahamoggallana, actually beaten to death by bandits due his negative karma in past life ... although he knew it was coming but he was not afraid of death.

Weychin SG

Spontaneous arising, non clinging :-

No preconcieved notions, no hangups!

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