The Essence of Jodo Shu Teachings vs Jodo Shinshu

disappear SG

I would like to give my views on Jodo Shu vs Jodo Shinshu. i know this is a very sensitive topic so if moderators here feel its inappropriate they should remove it

Basically, I embrace and recommend what is taught at this chinese website: www.purelandsect.org

(Note: im discussing the difference btw these 2 which can possibly be night and day, and not whether Jodo Shu is wrong or not)

To cut a long story short and to summarise, the way of Jodo Shinshu faith is something like Christianity(so u wont be surprised to hear of Jodo Shinshu churches in other countries.), Jodo Shu puts equal importance on faith and buddha recitation, while Jodo Shinshu undeniably puts almost all the emphasis on faith alone.

In my own opinion, and contrary to some of the Shin buddhism authors article's views at nembutsu.info, Jodo Shu in itself is totally sufficient for our correct approach to buddha recitation, without any need to read into Jodo Shinshu teachings.

the origins of Jodo Shinshu(=shin buddhism) started from Shinran. Now i do not doubt that Shinran himself has any deviant or heterodox views, but it is some of the people who continued the jodo shinshu tradition who might have misinterpreted Shinran's teachings. Shinran has frequently mentioned about something of great interest: the diamond-like shinjin(=true faith) which after attaining it, rebirth in the Pureland is assured. so some people will be led to think that since rebirth is assured, there is no longer a need to recite Amituofo as many times as possible. Now this is where the problem lies. I believe this concept of shinjin is no problem for Shinran himself and i have no doubt he did experience it which led him to continue buddha recitation correctly, but for us normal humans, this very concept of shinjin is quite dubious. it kind of parallels the christian's kind of faith, saying that their birth in Heaven is guaranteed as long as the faith is there; but the problem now is, how can u be sure that what u have experienced is indeed the diamond-like shinjin that Shinran experienced?? It is difficult to be sure because it is easy for humans to be tricked by their own feelings.

i want to share my views and experience with this because I myself used to embrace jodo shinshu teachings but was deceived probably not by the actual Shin teachings themselves, but by my own deluded mind and misled by some of the views of Shin buddhists in their writings. i just want to say that harbouring the thought that since u are embraced by the Buddha, the faith is there and therefore you dont need to recite the Buddha's name as many times as u can, is very dangerous. i am speaking from my personal experience from these few years which i do not wish to elaborate in detail, and wish to give this warning to all with the affinity with Pureland Buddhism.

Honen's teaching is simply this:

do not doubt that just one recitation suffices for rebirth in the pureland(faith), yet we should make the effort as far as possible within our ability to recite the name as many times as possible until our moment of death(practice), and these 2 go hand in hand and will keep reinforcing each other. overly focusing on only one and neglecting the other will lead to straying from the assurance and certainty of being reborn in the pureland.

in actual fact, it is extremely easy for people to go into both extremes. Overly emphasizing practice and neglecting faith means they think that at the point of death, if they cannot recite the buddha's name, however much they recite in normal times of life, it will be useless and they cannot be reborn. The other extreme is thinking that since one recitation is sufficient for rebirth, why bother to keep on reciting as many times as possible within our ability?

from experience, the second kind of view is more dangerous than the first, because in the first at least u have the power of the buddha's light and protection while u are diligently practising the recitation, while in the 2nd, u dont recite the buddha's name, u will tend to be thinking mundane and deluded thoughts and more vulnerable to your own negative karma.

there is one more lingering doubt in people's minds: what if we experience untimely death due to illness/accident and are unable to recite Amituofo at the point of death? can we be reborn? The answer we have here is this: as long as u follow honen's advice of reciting with both faith and practice as equally important, even if at the point of death we are unable to recite the name, we are assured of rebirth in the pureland. Amituofo etc will still come and take u there. Whether u believe or agree or not, this is the prevailing orthodox view of Jodo Shu.

one line of wisdom by Honen is: "recitation during our normal times equals the recitation at the point of death, and recitation at the point of death equals the recitation during normal times"(pardon me for my lousy english translation but u get the meaning). That is why those who have not recite at all for all their lives but recite at the point of death can be reborn.

another important thing: if u are able to just keep on reciting Amituofo without all the above discrimination, rebirth is also assured after death. this is quite difficult for us humans because we tend to end up discriminating, hence all the teachings above to reinforce our awareness.

it is up to those who have the affinity to accept this. i have put in effort to say all that i have to say, and i recommend going to the website i have given to have a clear idea. I do not think i have yet come across even any sources which conveys all i've said in English, hence this post. i understand the controversial nature of this post, if the moderators find this inappropriate please delete the post and topic. thanks.

bohiruci SG

its okay wat :)

why would the moderator delete this post ..

jodo shu and jodo shinshu are authentic school

but not Sokka Gakkai mah

sanath SG

As a Jodo Shin Buddhist i have no choice but to rebutt certain parts in disappear's post, since those who read it may develop misunderstandings on Jodo Shin.

Now, in no way does Shinran Shonin say that one need not recite the Nembutsu after attaining shinjin (faith), in fact, in Jodo Shin, what is more important is not the number of Nembutsus you recite. There are many people who recite Nembutsu countless times, but still do not attain birth in the Pure Land. Why? Because they do not entrust themselves fully to Amida's Vow. When one attains Shinjin, out of gratitude, one will not cease to recite the Nembutsu.

"Within Shinjin, there is the Nembutsu; but in the Nembutsu, there might be no Shinjin".

(I just came back from Hong Kong, so will reply more in detail when i am more energetic)

Gassho

disappear SG

As a Jodo Shin Buddhist i have no choice but to rebutt certain parts in disappear's post, since those who read it may develop misunderstandings on Jodo Shin.

"Within Shinjin, there is the Nembutsu; but in the Nembutsu, there might be no Shinjin".

(I just came back from Hong Kong, so will reply more in detail when i am more energetic)

Gassho

if people read my post carefully, they will not develop misunderstanding on jodo shinshu. so, there is no need for concern or worry.

if u read my post carefully, u would have realised that i didnt say theres anything wrong with Shinran's teaching. the problem is certain shin buddhists, in their writings, seem to have misinterpreted them. if u do not have the knowledge and wisdom, it is very, very easy to be misled. this is my personal experience. as yes, people who think that after attaining shinjin they dont need to recite the nembutsu, this shows that they didnt attain the very shinjin shinran attained! my concern is more of some of the people who propagate the jodo shinshu teachings, rather than the teachings by shinran himself.

if u read my post on honen's advice: "do not doubt that just one recitation suffices for rebirth in the pureland(faith), yet we should make the effort as far as possible within our ability to recite the name as many times as possible until our moment of death(practice), and these 2 go hand in hand and will keep reinforcing each other. overly focusing on only one and neglecting the other will lead to straying from the assurance and certainty of being reborn in the pureland."

you would have realised that never in the paragraph is the number of times stressed as most important(which is not to say that the number is totally unimportant--there is a reason why Honen said that 10000 a day is good), but rather the willingness to recite it as many times as u can. the concept of "entrusting totally to Amida's primal vow" is fine, but unfortunately when it comes to layman humans, it becomes dubious. why? supposedly like what u said, u feel u have attained the true faith and shinjin, and u are able to out of gratitude recite nembutsu naturally and spontaneously. well and good. but the problem is, again, how can all other people be sure what they experience is exactly the shinjin which shinran experienced?

u said there are pple reciting nembutsu many times but who cannot be reborn. my explanation is also written in my prev post, this is because they emphasize practice over faith, thinking that however much they recite normal times, at the moment of death if they cannot recite the name, they cannot be reborn. they impose these self-retricted barrier upon themselves which the original primal vow doesnt have.

the problem of concept of shinjin in jodo shinshu being dubious is: what if for those people who do not, have not and cannot experience the shinjin stressed so much by jodo shinshu? does that mean that there is no hope for them already? what if there are people who sincerely wish to be reborn in the pureland but because of their karma, are unable to feel gratitude at all? how, exactly how do u experience the shinjin so much stressed in jodo shinshu, and how do u entrust yourselves totally to the vow without fail?

the answer as to how to entrust yourself fully to Amitabha Buddha, seems still to come to this: isnt it still to recite the nembutsu and carrying it on as far as possible? without reciting the nembutsu, how do u entrust yourself? by feeling? this will become dubious again.

it is something like christians, who say they have experienced totally the true faith and they are totally sure they are destined for Heaven. but whether there is a true foundation in their faith, i am unsure as i do not know much about their religion. For Pureland, the faith and certainty of being reborn is still built upon the nembutsu and reciting it. whether u experience that kind of revelation in gratitude and tears it doesnt matter. what is important is the recitation of the nembutsu, knowing that one call is enough to be reborn, yet being willing to continally recite as many times as possible(without regard or over concerned whether u experience the sort of "shinjin" people are talking about or whether u feel gratitude or not, these are secondary(well and gd if u can experience it, but not a cause for worry if u cant), and without regard whether u recite spontaneously with gratefulness or not)this, in my opinion, is the safest way to go, and rebirth is assured.

the problem of saying u must experience shinjin in order to recite it with gratitude and spontaneously so that rebirth is assured, is not practical for every single one. for the most part, there are people who cannot feel the gratitude and spontaneously and naturally recite nembutsu. also, there are those who think they experienced it, but are actually deceived by their own feelings.(after all, the feelings of humans fluctuate and change all the time!) therefore to me, this is actually a barrier that jodo shinshu unknowingly imposes and therefore is unable to benefit all beings. sure, it is a very attractive concept, but unfortunately cannot be practically used on everyone, whether u agree or not.

note: my posts are to help people and not here to debate nor give a rebuttal. im just making my point clearer in this post but pardon me for my phrasing and english.

Also, it is entirely possible i have unwittingly explained something wrongly. i still recommend to go to the chinese website :)

Amituofo

disappear SG

to summarise the lengthy post, here is something worth noting:

if one recites the nembutsu with this in mind:

"do not doubt that just one recitation suffices for rebirth in the pureland(faith), yet we should make the effort as far as possible within our ability to recite the name as many times as possible until our moment of death(practice), and these 2 go hand in hand and will keep reinforcing each other. overly focusing on only one and neglecting the other will lead to straying from the assurance and certainty of being reborn in the pureland."

even if the person diligently puts in his/her utmost effort to recite the nembutsu 100000 times a day, this is also considered fully depending on the other power(他力), and fully entrusting upon the primal vow.

sanath SG

I am not very apt at explaining, so i will let the following work display the teachings of Jodo Shinshu. Will let the readers see for themselves.

THE TEACHING OF THE PRIMAL VOW OF OTHER POWER
6.1 Introduction
Based on an understanding of Buddhism in general, we can now proceed to understand the specific teachings of Jodo Shinshu. In order to do this, we have first studied the life of Shinran Shonin. Showing undaunted strength throughout his long, harsh life of 90 years, Shinran Shonin was able to survive through the radiant light of Amida Buddha’s compassion. The teachings of Jodu Shinshu were the basis of his wonderful life. Of these teachings, there are three essential teachings which must always be considered:
• the teaching of the Primal Vow of Other Power
• the teaching directed to evil persons
• the teaching on birth in the Pure Land.
Unfortunately, these essential teachings have not always been transmitted correctly. In this chapter, we will discuss the teachings of the Primal Vow of Other Power in order to deepen our understanding of the meaning of the nembutsu and shinjin.

6.1 What is Other Power?
In Japan, we often hear on television and read in the newspaper that other power – relying on the power of others or depending on others – is not good. Instead, we hear that we should rely on ourselves or self-power. This is a great mistake in understanding the meaning of the Primal Vow of Other Power in Jodo Shinshu. Shinran Shonin clearly states that Other Power is the power of the Primal Vow of Amida Buddha. Other Power is not the power of another human being or other human beings. Rather,
Shinran Shonin teaches that Other Power is only the Buddha’s power of the Primal Vow. It is the workings of Amida Buddha to help us attain Buddhahood so that we will be born in the Pure Land.
Regardless of the nature of a person, Amida Buddha cannot remain silent and abandon that person. Amida continually works to awaken all beings that are in the world of illusion (samsara). His work appears in the form of the Primal Vow and as the nembutsu. Thus, Other Power means the Primal Vow and the nembutsu itself. This is the reason it is called the Primal Vow of Other Power. In Shinran Shonin’s writing, there is no reference to the Primal Vow of self-power so we cannot equate self-power
with the Primal Vow.

6.2 What is the Primal Vow?
The Primal Vow is the basic universal will. When Bodhisattvas of the Mahayana tradition walk the path to Buddhahood, their will is not only to seek awakening for themselves but for all beings to attain Buddhahood. Thus, the will must benefit others in addition to the self. This basic will is called the universal vow.

All Bodhisattvas possess their own special vows, called the separate vows of the Bodhisattva. Bodhisattva Dharmakara (who became Amida Buddha) has his own separate vows which are sometimes referred to as the 48 vows. Of these vows, the 18th vow is called the Special Vow because it emancipates all living beings unconditionally. Thus, it is called the great Will or the Will that extends eternally:
If, after my attaining Buddhahood, all beings in the ten quarters who with sincerity of heart entrusting themselves and wishing to be born in my country, repeating my name perhaps ten times, are not so born, may I not achieve the Highest Enlightenment.
(18th Vow)
The 18th vow is sometimes also called the Selected Vow. Shinran Shonin states that this vow is the essence of Jodo Shinshu. In other words, Jodo Shinshu is the dharma of true reality which awakens all beings to Buddhahood.
Consider that a child lives within the loving wishes of his/her parents. These parental wishes are not simply wishes but have the power to be actualized in the child’s life. Thus, the parents’ wishes work entirely for the child’s benefit. In the same way, Amida’s Primal Vow is placed on each of us and at the same time, becomes a power that supports our existence. This power is called the Other Power or the power of the Primal Vow, and its action is called eko (transferring one’s merit) i.e. directing the benefits to all beings to help them to achieve awakening.
The parents’ wishes express themselves in the form of a beautiful love for their child only, and not for other children but this love may turn into ugly egoism. In contrast, Buddha’s Great Vow of compassion extends equally to all. It is truly the vow that “does not discriminate whether one is young or old, good or evil “(Tannisho). It is for this reason that the vow is said to extend to all beings throughout the ten quarters (e.g. the world).

6.4 The Origin of Other Power
The purpose of Other Power is to bring about our own birth in the Pure Land. It is the power of the Buddha to help us attain Buddhahood. But where does this Buddha power originate? The answer lies in the enlightenment of Shakyamuni Buddha. The elements of enlightenment have within them the ability to bring others to enlightenment. It is like light having in its nature the ability to destroy darkness. It is only when light reaches darkness that darkness disappears. Similarly, regardless of how
long the darkness of our illusion has existed, the illusion is destroyed instantly when the light of enlightenment reaches us.
We do not possess any power at all to attain enlightenment by ourselves. Through his wisdom, the eyes of Amida Buddha perceived this and could not abandon us. Directing the mind of great compassion, Amida Buddha could not help but work on our behalf. This working is called Other Power and when it reveals itself concretely, it takes the form of the Primal Vow. Thus, Jodo Shinshu bases itself on the Primal Vow of Other Power.

sanath SG

6.5 On Shinjin
All religions require shinjin as a core belief, revealed through such concepts as “have faith”, “do not doubt” etc. However, the Jodo Shinshu teaching of shinjin is completely different from that of other religions. Jodo Shinshu teaches that shinjin is the true cause of attaining Buddhahood and birth in the Pure Land.
This does not mean however that acquiring shinjin is the same as being saved. The term “I believe” is considered to be the illusory mind of the ordinary person. Shinjin, on the other hand, is known as true mind because it is the Buddha mind. When this Buddha mind reaches our mind and heart, it is called shinjin. It is the true mind of the Other Power being transferred to an ordinary person. Thus, it is entirely the working of the power of the Primal Vow.
But how can this working reach our mind? The answer lies in simply “listening”. Without listening, shinjin will be permanently unavailable to us. Furthermore, to listen does not mean to just listen but to listen as we reflect on our daily life and appreciate its importance. This is the reason that the teachings state: listen thoughtfully. When we listen thoughtfully, the Buddha mind will appear in our mind as shinjin. This deeper meaning of listening is described in phrases like listening is true mind and to hear
is to reveal the true mind of shinjin. To listen in order to increase our knowledge or to enrich our mind will not bring about true understanding that leads to birth in the Pure Land. Furthermore, this type of listening cannot be the source of energy that gives us the strength to live in this harsh world.

6.6 On Nembutsu
As discussed previously, the Primal Vow of Other Power takes final concrete form in the nembutsu. The nembutsu exists solely for the sake of our liberation; it is not static but must constantly be active and moving dynamically to awaken us. This intense movement flows into us and reveals itself as shinjin.
At the same time, it reveals itself through the expression of the nembutsu. As it enters our mind and our heart, we receive this constant active movement as an expression of Amida Buddha. Like the sweet fragrance from a single cherry blossom that reveals the coming of spring or the cricket in the field that reveals the approach of autumn, the nembutsu reveals itself in us as an inner voice, awakening Amida’s great compassion.
We often understand the reciting of the nembutsu to be the condition for awakening but this interpretation is completely incorrect. The fact that the nembutsu reveals itself in the recitation is proof that Amida Buddha’s actions to help us attain Buddhahood have reached us. Thus, we appreciate the significance of even a single person becoming a person of the nembutsu. We must recognize the power of the nembutsu as we recite it. Since people are always seeking happiness in this illusory world, the nembutsu alone can lead us to happiness. The reason is that the nembutsu alone provides us with the
energy to live fully until we return to the Pure Land.

6.7 Living in the Other Power of the Primal Vow
The general understanding of living within the Other Power of the Primal Vow is that we should relyon other people or laws that are imposed upon us, resulting in dull, passive lives. This is an incorrect the Other Power of the Primal Vow can be clearly seen in Shinran Shonin’s 90 years of fulfilled life. Ashe stated through his powerful words in the Tannisho:
In the person who lives in nembutsu opens up the great path of unobstruction.

Despite our present extravagant lives, we experience a great emptiness. This empty feeling and its hunger can never be fulfilled unless we choose a life that leads us on the path of the Other Power of the Primal Vow. Once a person enters into the life of the nembutsu, it becomes a wonderful life without a single element of fear. We will be released from any fear due to uncertainty or fear of being punished by gods or demons. We must receive this path as the single path to freedom. Thus, one of the pivotal points of Jodo Shinshu is to truly live within the teachings of the Other Power of the Primal Vow.

(From: Guide to Jodo Shinshu teachings and practices http://www.calgary-buddhist.ab.ca/Attachments/JSGuide.pdf)

Herzog_Zwei SG

its okay wat :)

why would the moderator delete this post ..

jodo shu and jodo shinshu are authentic school

but not Sokka Gakkai mah

Any further questions from Nichiren Shu and Nichiren ShoShu? After that you can ask about Sokka Gakkai.

Herzog_Zwei SG

to summarise the lengthy post, here is something worth noting:

if one recites the nembutsu with this in mind:

A quote from Honen Shonin I believe?