Moved over from metta lounge 2, just some of my thoughts and
understanding and I understand some may find it too long,
repetitive and confusing (I'm not a good writer) though I guess
sometimes being repetitive and elaborative makes a subject clearer
to the reader (like the sutras being repetitive) and those who have
no glimpses of awareness/presence/non-duality may find the subject
incomprehensible and even 'boring' because it makes no sense (but
those who have certain glimpses, which i'm sure most of us
interested in spirituality will have had, may recognise some of
what is being said...):
Zhuang zi is a very interesting person..
The points that Zhuangzi makes-
I wonder if he is enlightened ??
According to our moderator Thusness and from what I read, Chuang
Tzu has insights/experience on the luminosity and vitality aspect
of our true nature, but cant be compared with Lao Tzu who he thinks
is truly enlightened (my Master Ven Shen Kai also said that Lao Tzu
is a Pratyekabuddha, so did many other Buddhist masters like Zen
Master Han Shan, and some lamas and rinpoches, see http://buddhism.sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/210722?page=2...
of course not everyone will agree but they may not have read or
understood Tao Te Ching yet)
From an old conversation with Thusness some years back:
[23:09] AEN: hi
[23:09] AEN: u used to say lao tzu was enlightened rite?
[23:09] Thusness: yes
[23:10] AEN: how about chuang tzu?
[23:10] AEN: and did tao te ching teach impermanence, conditioned
arising, etc?
[23:10] Thusness: not as precise like buddhism. Buddhism almost
make it a science.
[23:10] AEN: oic
[23:11] AEN: then how about chuang tzu
[23:11] Thusness: the steps are so precise.
[23:11] AEN: ya
[23:11] AEN: true.. tao te ching is so short
[23:11] AEN: do u read chuang tzu teachings?
[23:11] Thusness: chuang tzu is different, only the no-doing aspect
until luminosity is clear.
[23:12] AEN: icic
[23:12] AEN: so
[23:12] Thusness: but lao-tze is deep and profound. What really has
been spoken.
[23:12] AEN: is there anyone else in taoism as enlightened as lao
tzu
[23:12] AEN: icic..
[23:12] Thusness: nothing really only the 5000 words.
[23:19] Thusness: even with all our experience when reading the
text, will make us feel shallow.
[23:19] Thusness: will put us into stillness and at once in line
with Tao.
[23:19] Thusness: The Thusness simply flows.
[23:20] Thusness: it is a different approach. But not to belittle
tao de jing.
-----------------------------
Thusness: coz true taoist masters know that it will reach tao
Thusness: and come to the experience of the true power of
self-so.
Thusness: zhi ran
Thusness: a strength that just grows by itself
Thusness: self arise
AEN: icic..
Thusness: naturally luminous
AEN: oic
Thusness: so the elimination is based on such understanding because
they know it.
Thusness: they have already experienced it.
AEN: oic
Thusness: so they are not afraid to tell their followers to
eliminate till none.
AEN: icic..
Thusness: as long as it is not theoritical and they truely
practice, they will know.
-----------------------------
Regarding Chuang Tzu I see that his teachings on
acceptance/surrendering into complete nothingness, dropping/letting
go/'forgetting self', spontaneity/self-so,
transformation/impermanence, stillness, 'emptiness' [note that it
is not the same as 'emptiness' in buddhism in the sense of
dependent origination/the ultimate nature of all reality/all
phenomena], non-abiding and non-action (wu-wei) as being compatible
with Buddhist teachings.. though they are not about the ultimate
insight into Emptiness. Also when he used the metaphor of the
mirror (he used it numerous times and is a major theme in some of
his texts) for Tao it is clearly refering to the aspect of our
luminous-clarity/awareness. The practice of non-doing and dropping
until 'luminosity is clear' is an important practice for us all.
However the experience/realisation of our nature as luminous
clarity does not need to come with the insight into its ultimate
nature (emptiness) or the insight of the pathlessness of
non-duality of subject/object as the nature of reality than a stage
of experience with entry/exit.
(Also do take note that the mirror/consciousness may become
misunderstood as an eternal observer observing its reflections
(experience), as if the transient are objects separate from the
mirror that comes and goes within an unchanging background (or a
mirror)... this is due to a subtle separation and 'solidifying' the
luminous clarity into an entity/a permanent Self (with the result
of every transience experienced as 'not self', which is a duality),
and thus non-dual is not realised/experienced [that the transience
is in fact the mirror]. This is the case of the experience of the
pure I AM and this is still dualistic, the insight that there is no
observer apart from observed is not present. There is no eternal
witness, only a witnessing inseparable from the flow of
phenomenality... No watcher needed, the process itself knows and
rolls as Venerable Buddhaghosa writes in the Visuddhi Magga. The
tendency to remain [as the Witness] or sink back to a Source is an
illusion, the working of our karmic bonds to a 'Self'... in reality
the Appearance is the Source, there is no mirror reflecting,
manifestation alone IS -- sound hears, scenery sees, the dust is the
mirror)
Chuang Tzu also talks about letting go of the 'self'/forgetting
the self [dropping all concepts, sense of personality and
fundamentally all constriction to the body/mind or the illusory
sense of a center or a separate observer, experiencer or doer apart
from observed/experience/deed] and 'surrendering to the sequence of
things' through non-doing. It is also realising and surrendering to
the 'force' of spontaneity, self-so, like the Tao/Buddha-Nature or
the vitality/intelligence/luminous-awareness that allows you to
move and walk but such action is not done by a 'doer' -- like when
walking there is just walking without thinking about it or thinking
"left foot" "right foot" -- everything is just natural, 'non-dual'
and 'non-volitional' -- it is simply a mere happening. That is
non-action (wu wei). Its a completely surrendering to whatever
appears in that moment (a.k.a "the sequence of things") that 'self'
and 'changes of life' are forgotten, there is no 'continuity of an
entity', only fingers typing on keyboard, sound arising, the pure
suchness of transiency. No movement, no coming from, no going to,
only thus. Completely still yet ever flowing. Thusness just writes
it perfectly: "In non-dual
experience, the true face of impermanence nature is experienced as
happening without movement, change without going anywhere. This is
the “what is” of
impermanence. It is just so." Surrendering into
nothingness, void of self, and everything is simply 'self-so'.
Thusness:
Unmanifested is the
manifestation,
The no-thing of everything,
Completely still yet ever flowing,
This is the spontaneous arising nature of the source.
Simply Self-So.
Use self-so to overcome conceptualization.
Dwell completely into the incredible realness of the phenomenal
world.
----
Chuang Tzu:
"Besides, we all talk of 'me.' How do you know what is this
'me' that we speak of? You dream you are a bird, and soar to
heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean's depths.
And you cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a
dream. A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and
smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile. Resign yourself to
the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you
shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One."
----
I have discussed some of the verses of Chuang Tzu with Thusness
last year on this. Thusness said however that the 'forgetting of
self' is not the same as the insight of anatta (no-self) as the
pathless/everpresent nature of reality. Through forgetting the self
one can have glimpses of non-dual experience, as Chuang Tzu said
entering the pure, the One/the Divine, though may not necessary be
the non-dual insights (i.e. the realisation that observer is the
observed, no subject/object duality, as the everpresent nature of
reality rather than as a stage with entry and exit)
I have had experiences/glimpses of non-dual experience through
'forgetting the self' as i have written in the other topic Death, Consciousness,
Nondual Perception; and the 'dropping of self' has led to the
experience of intense luminosity... but it has not been an ongoing
experience for me; I did not 'realise' non-dual reality as a
pathless reality. Nevertheless it is still important as a practice
for us... (the practice of dropping self,
surrendering/non-doing)
Also if I remember correctly Thusness mentioned that the
experience of vitality which Chuang Tzu stressed also leads to the
experience of a sort of absorption in oneness/vitality pervading
and giving rise to the universe... though I think not necessarily
the same as the insight of non-duality as a pathless reality.
As I have written in the Comments section of http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
based on what Thusness have said in the past, the words in Bold are
from my post while the comments are by Thusness.
"First I do not see Anatta as merely a freeing of
personality sort of experience as you mentioned; I see it as that a
self/agent, a doer, a thinker, a watcher, etc, cannot be found
apart from the moment to moment flow of manifestation or as its
commonly expressed as ‘the observer is the observed’; there is no
self apart from the arising and ceasing. A very important point
here is that Anatta/No-Self is a Dharma Seal, it is the nature of
Reality all the time -- and not merely as a state free from
personality, ego or the ‘small self’ or a stage to attain. (related
article:
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/07/bernadette-roberts-interview.html)
This means that it does not depend on the level of achievement of a
practitioner to experience anatta but Reality has always been
Anatta and what is important here is the intuitive insight into it
as the nature, characteristic, of phenomenon (dharma seal).
To illustrate further due to the importance of this seal, I would
like to borrow a quote from the Bahiya Sutta
(http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.10.irel.html)
‘in the seeing, there is just the seen, no seer’, ‘in the hearing,
there is just the heard, no hearer’…
If a practitioner were to feel that he has gone beyond the
experiences from ‘I hear sound’ to a stage of ‘becoming sound’ or
takes that ‘there is just mere sound’, then this experience is
again distorted. For in actual case, there is and always is only
sound when hearing; never was there a hearer to begin with. Nothing
attained for it is always so.
Well said! Just a little more emphasis: This is the seal of no-self
and can be realized and experienced in all moments; not just a mere
concept.
For a non dualist that has gained sufficient stability, practice
takes a very different role. This is due to the thoroughness of
seeing through the illusionary views of the sense of self, the
entire mechanism that causes the split and the mechanism of how it
‘blinds’. Therefore after knowing the real cause and conditions, a
non-dualist cannot resort back to a dualistic approach towards
liberation and practice and meditation take very different roles.
It becomes instant, dynamic, spontaneous and direct.
Before the awakening of prajna wisdom, there will
always be an unknowing attempt to maintain a purest state of
'presence'. For this is how the dual mind works. This purest state
of presence is the 'how' of a dualistic mind -- its dualistic
attempt to provide a solution due to its lack of clarity of the
spontaneous and emptiness nature of the unconditioned. It is
critical to note here that both the doubts/confusions/searches and
the solutions that are created for these doubts/confusions/searches
actually derive from the same cause -- our karmic propensities of
ever seeing things dualistically (also see my other friend
Longchen’s article
http://www.dreamdatum.com/meditation-spontaneous.html where I
posted two of his articles including ‘How is nonduality like?’ in
this forum)
‘Purest’ because it is the limit of the thought realm; beyond that
is inconceivable by the conceptual mind. The mind conjures out this
‘state’ as it cannot penetrate its own depth. It does not allow
itself to cease completely.
.
.
That said, I never doubted the importance of “concentration &
absorption” in spiritual practices. It is also true that the
strength of uninterrupted concentration may not be there even for
one with insights (especially when one have just begun to have
nondual realisations and the insight into emptiness is not yet
there), and it has to go hand in hand with their new found insight
of nonduality for stability, and also move into various graduation
of nonduality. As mentioned earlier, there are no
stages/appearances that are purer than any others – every state is
equally pure and non-dual in nature. When the mind grasps pure
awareness as ‘formless’, ‘thoughtless’, ‘attributeless’, and as the
background reality.... the ‘fabric’ and ‘texture’ of pristine
awareness as ‘forms’ is then missed. Nevertheless, whatever you
commented is crucial especially for the first 3 (Thusness’s) stages
of experience, and in these stages the problem would certainly be
the lack of sustained meditation concentration as well as the
tendency of trying to grasp intellectually... which is also why
Thusness often emphasizes the importance of
sitting.
The first 3 stages are before the arising of non-dual insight and
the purpose of sustainability is to create sufficient gap between 2
moments of thoughts to allow the sensation of contrast between
conceptual/non-conceptuality for the thinking mind to realize the
possibility of going pre-symbolic thereby loosening its stubborn
grips of a dualistic framework.
Sustained bare attention also gave rise to the realization that
‘inner’, ‘outer’, ‘space’, ‘time’ and even ‘body’ and ‘mind’ are
all mere constructs. Freeing from these constructs, also give rise
to the condition for non-dual insight to arise.
For the first 3 stages, practice takes the form of striving towards
a certain stage of perfection whereas stages 4 onwards, practice
moves from ‘efforting’ to natural luminosity and spontaneity."
------------------------
There are many stages of experience with regards to luminosity
and thoroughness of dropping, as well as the insights into the
pathless/everpresent non-dual and empty nature... only after
insights into our pathless [not a stage, no entry and exit but the
everpresent 'nature'] nondual, no-self, emptiness nature can it be
considered 'enlightenment' in Buddhism. This differentiates the
Buddhist experience of enlightenment from the experiences of many
mystics. Our moderator Thusness has written six stages of his
experience, http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
... we can say that the first two are more related to the
Hindu/advaita experience [the realisation of our nature as
luminosity/"pure consciousness" though mistaken as the Self/I
AMness], the third more of Taoist [the thoroughness of dropping and
realising spontaneity] while stage 4 is the beginning into the
insights into anatta (no-self) and emptiness nature essential in
Buddhism for true liberation, and to have the correct understanding
of Presence/Buddha-nature. However Stage 1~3 are nevertheless quite
commonly experienced by Buddhists as well depending on his practice
and understanding... but Buddhists do not necessarily have to go
through them and they are not necessarily 'the Buddhist's
experience', though the factors of intense luminosity and dropping
will be there through correct practice [through the practice of
vipassana/insight-practice one may skip the first few stages and
arrive at insights of the pathless nondual reality in a more
gradual and systematic manner]
But it should also be noted that all 'stages of experience' are
just relative truths, the ultimate reality is like what Zen Master
Huang Po always said, that both enlightened and sentient beings are
only One Mind, One Reality... and in his usual 'sudden' style he
would throw out all ideas of stages of enlightenment, including the
10 Bodhisattva bhumis. I think with correct understanding that is
not necessary but there is a very important message behind this.
That there is only One Reality/One Mind and it always is! Degrees
of clarity are all relative Appearances of What Already Is, all
Appearances is the Source, and so to explain some of what Huang Po
said, in my own words and understanding only...
whether you are a sentient being or a Bodhisattva having traversed
the ten bhumis, you will only arrive at this One Mind - ever - that
which is ever-present and has never left 'you' because it IS You or
rather, it is All There Is already, and find that all your efforts
in practicing to 'attain' something is all but a dream... you will
never arrive at reality or a 'higher reality' because reality is
all there Is, already. Everything is already empty and
luminous.
Thusness: Everything is the One Reality
incorporating causes, conditions and luminosity of our Empty nature
as One and inseparable.
Thusness also said in the blog:
“It should also be noted that
the stages are nothing authentic or any indications of achievement;
it is wrote simply for the purpose of sharing to ‘JonLS’ when
condition arose; there is no need to overemphasize
anything.
If the stages are seen as gradual ascendance, the
essence is again lost completely. All described stages are mere
appearances and no one appearance is purer than the
other.”
-----------------------------
http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/03/thusnesss-six-stages-of-experience.html
Stage 3:
Entering into a state of nothingness
Somehow something is blocking the natural flow of my innermost
essence and preventing me from re-living the experience. Presence
is still there but there is no sense of ‘totality’. It was both
logically and intuitively clear that ‘I’ is the problem. It is the
‘I’ that is blocking; it is the ‘I’ that is the limit; it is the
‘I’ that is the boundary but why can’t I do away with it? At that
point in time it didn’t occur to me that I should look into the
nature of awareness and what awareness is all about, instead, I was
too occupied with the art of entering into a state of oblivious to
rid the ‘I’...this continues for the next 13+ years (in between of
course there are many other minor events and the experience of
total presence did occur many times but with few months of
gap)…
However I came to one important understanding –
The ‘I’ is the root cause of all artificialities, true freedom is
in spontaneity. Surrender into complete nothingness and everything
simply Self So.
---------------
That's the essence of Taoist practices. :) But do note that the
dropping [Thusness: The practitioner drops away mind, body,
knowledge...everything. There is no insight, there is no
luminosity there is only total allowing of whatever that happens,
happen in its own accord. All senses including consciousness
are shut and fully absorbed. Awareness of 'anything' is only
after emerging from that state.] must be accompanied with
the experience of intense luminosity (clarity/awareness/presence),
as total surrender without strong luminosity may make one become
trance-like and with certain chants may even invite spirit
possessions! With intense luminosity this will not happen, as the
luminosity will prevent such spiritual interferences... but the
experience of intense luminosity such as through self-inquiry will
also have its own set of problems including insomnia due to a
strong attachment to 'Self' and the conscious aspect of Presence
[prior to realisation of Anatta, Pure Presence is experienced and
thought to be the ultimate Self/I AM, a problem pervasive in the
hindu teachings] and has to be countered by dropping....
I remember at one time one guy in my dharma center spoke about
entering into a oblivious state of absorption without awareness as
being 'the goal' while quoting some Taoist sources including Chuang
Tzu I think, but my dharma teacher corrected him in saying full
awareness is more important, for gaining wisdom and liberation. So
our practices may differ depending on where you learnt it from...
we should not 'practice wrongly', and also we must not give people
the wrong advise and medicine. Also, I think Chuang Tzu (but maybe
other Taoist masters may have taught differently) made it clear
that the result of total stillness is complete clarity 'clearer
than water', resulting a mirror-bright clarity, "The sage's mind in stillness is
the mirror of Heaven and earth, the glass of the ten thousand
things."
With regards to 'entering oblivion', it may be a remedy to
counter certain problems faced by practitioners experiencing
intense luminosity... nevertheless it is more important to
experience full clarity of Presence and the nature of Presence
rather than to enter into absorption. In a very old post from more
than 3 years ago at the topic All there is is Presence, Longchen posted:
"What happens when presence is eliminated. No thought, no
presence... then could this be a blank?
I do have a time when i meditated into a blank. No perception. it
was when the mind 'moves' again that i realise that i was in the
blank."
To which Thusness replied:
"The blankness is a form of absorption where the knowing faculty
of consciousness is temporarily suspended. Complete clarity and
Presence without a 'Self' is more crucial. 
"
(continued in URL)
The practice of entering into
oblivion/nothingness/absorption/samadhi [like Taoist] or Samatha
practices, or self-inquiry [like Advaita/Hindu] taught in other
spiritual traditions are not really peculiar to the teachings of
Buddhism... even though self-inquiry are taught in some buddhist
traditions and 'dropping' is also practiced. With regards to
self-inquiry, there are some methods, such as self-inquiry that
leads to a quick, sudden glimpse of Presence and the understanding
of IT as our true self, but its nature may be misunderstood as the
I AM/Eternal Witness, with a lack of insight into
no-self/non-duality/emptiness. So it depends on the individual
practitioner and they should practice what suits them and also be
aware of the dangers. I happen to be practicing self inquiry but it
may not suit everyone, though Thusness occasionally gave such
advise (depending on conditions) he has said he would generally
refer people to Insight practices instead.
So generally speaking practicing insight/vipassana/vipashyana
under the guidance of an experienced/enlightened teacher is the
safest, systematic and gradual, and is the 'proper' path for a
Buddhist and taught by the Buddha and Buddha alone [peculiar only
to Buddhism] to develope insights [in fact entering
samadhi/practicing samatha or self inquiry alone will not lead to
non-dual/emptiness insights -- one eventually has to practice
vipashyana/insight or the contemplation on the nature of reality in
order to realise the pathless non-dual & empty nature of
reality, which is not a stage of experience with entry and exit],
and generally will not have the dangers of facing those problems as
what I have just mentioned.
Anyway with regards to Chuang Tzu, I have not studied his texts
but have come across some quotes which I liked.
Tung-kuo Tzu asked Chuang Tzu "Where is the Tao?"
`It is everywhere,' replied
Chuang Tzu.
Tung-kuo Tzu said "You must be more specific."
"It is in the ant" said Chuang Tzu.
"Why go down so low?"
"It is in the weeds."
"Why even lower?"
"It is in a potsherd."
"Why still lower?"
"It is in the excrement and urine," said Chuang
Tzu.
There is nothing that is not
so-and-so. There is nothing that is not all right.
[ii]
The space under the sky is
occupied by all things in their unity.
[xxi]
“The perfect man employs his mind as a mirror. It grasps
nothing; it refuses nothing; it receives but does not keep.”
"Hui Tzu said to
Chuang Tzu, "Can a man really be without
feelings?"
Chuang Tzu:
"Yes."
Hui Tzu: "But a
man who has no feelings-how can you call him a
man?"
Chuang Tzu: "The
Way gave him a face; Heaven gave him a form - why can't you call
him a man?"
Hui Tzu: "But if
you've already called him a man, how can he be without
feelings?"
Chuang Tzu:
"That's not what I mean by feelings. When I talk about having no
feelings, I mean that a man doesn't allow good or bad/likes or
dislikes to get in and do him harm. He just lets things be the way
they are and doesn't try to help life along."
Hui Tzu: "If he
doesn't try to help life along, then how can he keep himself
alive?"
Chuang Tzu: "The
Way gave him a face; Heaven gave him a form. He doesn't
let good or
bad/likes or dislikes get in and do
him harm. You, now - you treat your spirit like an outsider. You
wear out your energy, leaning on a tree and moaning, slumping at
your desk and dozing - Heaven picked out a body for you and you use
it to gibber about `hard' and `white'!" 10"
"http://www.taology.com/chinese/classic/English/chuangtzu13.htm
Section
THIRTEEN - THE WAY OF HEAVEN
IT IS THE WAY OF
HEAVEN to keep moving and to allow no piling up - hence the ten
thousand things come to completion. It is the Way of the emperor to
keep moving and to allow no piling up - hence the whole world
repairs to his court. It is the Way of the sage to keep moving and
to allow no piling up - hence all within the seas bow to him.
Comprehending Heaven, conversant with the sage, walker in the six
avenues and four frontiers of the Virtue of emperors and kings -
the actions of such a man come naturally; dreamily, he never lacks
stillness.
The sage is still
not because he takes stillness to be good and therefore is still.
The ten thousand things are insufficient to distract his mind -
that is the reason he is still. Water that is still gives back a
clear image of beard and eyebrows; reposing in the water level, it
offers a measure to the great carpenter. And if water in stillness
possesses such clarity, how much more must pure spirit. The sage's
mind in stillness is the mirror of Heaven and earth, the glass of
the ten thousand things.
Emptiness,
stillness, limpidity, silence, inaction - these are the level of
Heaven and earth, the substance of the Way and its Virtue.
Therefore the emperor, the king, the sage rest in them. Resting,
they may be empty; empty, they may be full; and fullness is
completion.1 Empty, they may be still; still, they may move;
moving, they may acquire. Still, they may rest in inaction; resting
in inaction, they