How do we know whether someone is enlightened?

last SG · 2008-02-18T00:19:24+00:00

I do think that anyone can reach to pureland of Amitabha with the right conditions, even though they have done some unwholesome acitivites in their current l...

Spnw07 SG

teacher chen said before if you dont ask him questions he sees you all as bodhisattvas!

What does that mean?

sinweiy SG

Chop off their a part of their body then cremate it...

Have relics then is enlightened

it's a misconception. fyi, i was taught that not all enlightened people have relics/shariras. those reborn in heavenly realms, can also produce shariras when cremated. i think it may be to due to people doing great amount of good deeds etc.

so one cannot use relics as a full proof that one is enlightened or not.

An Eternal Now SG

teacher chen said before if you dont ask him questions he sees you all as bodhisattvas!

It just means if confusion and ignorance did not arise, then you're there. But most of us are not.

An Eternal Now SG

What does that mean?

Saying something my teacher said...

Lost_Drift SG

Where did you heard this from? This is certainly not a Buddhist teaching. What is sky window?

Anyway, enlightenment does not depend on fate at all. First of all we do not believe in fate or predestination, and we do not believe that there is any higher power that can control someone's karma. We also do not believe in a creator God.

And anyone who practices surely can gain enlightenment. Every single person's Buddha Nature is already complete, waiting to be realised. Everyone will eventually attain Buddhahood, being only a matter of time.

Agree.."ren wei" (human acts) are something that plays a major role

Devil1976 SG

Does it matter...? :lol:

maggot SG

so one cannot use relics as a full proof that one is enlightened or not.

After the fire, the truth shall be revealed...

If no relics were seen...sorry I will take that practioner as a conman...

An Eternal Now SG

I think it might be possible that sariras may not be an indication of enlightenment, as there could be 'false sariras' --

After one of the retreats in Europe, Zen Master Seung Sahn told two stories that further illuminate the dangers of attaching to samadhi:

"A long time ago in China, during the time of Zen Master Lin Chi, there was a monk who was very famous for his samadhi practicing. 'Ibis monk never wore any clothes and was known as the 'naked monk.' He had mastered many kinds of samadhi, had lots of energy, and didn't need to wear clothes even in winter.

"One day Lin Chi decided to test this monk. He called a student of his, gave him a set of beautiful clothes, and asked him to present them to the monk. The student went to the monk and said, 'Ah, you are wonderful. Your practicing is very strong. So my teacher wants to give you these beautiful clothes as a present.' The monk kicked away the clothes and said, 'I don't need these clothes. I have original clothes, from my parents! Your clothes can only be kept a short time, then they will wear out. But my original clothes are never broken. Also, if they become dirty, I just take a shower and they are clean again. I don't need your clothes!'

"The student went to Lin Chi and told him what happened. Lin Chi said, 'You must go to this monk once more and ask him a certain question.' So the student went to the monk and said, 'Great monk! I have one question for you. You said you got your original clothes from your parents.' 'Of course!' said the monk. 'Then I ask you, before you got these original clothes from your parents, what kind of clothes did you have?' Upon hearing this, the naked monk went deep into samadhi, then into nirvana (he died).

"Everyone was very surprised and sad. But when the monk's body was cremated, many sarira appeared, so everyone thought, 'Ah, this was a great monk.' Sitting on the high rostrum, Lin Chi hit the stand with his Zen stick and said, 'Form is emptiness, emptiness is form.' He hit it again, 'No form, no emptiness.' He hit it a third time, 'Form is form, emptiness is emptiness. Which one is correct?' Nobody understood. Then the Zen Master shouted 'KATZ!' and said, 'The sky is blue, the tree is green.' If you cannot answer in one word the question about your original clothes, then, although you can get samadhi and nirvana, you cannot get freedom from life and death.

"Then the Zen Master stared at the sarira -- poof! -- they turned to water. This is magic! They all turned to water and disappeared. Everyone was surprised. The meaning of this is: if you do samadhi practice deeply, then when you die many sarira will appear. But, these sarira will not last long because they represent ,one mind,' not 'clear mind' which is our original nature. Our original nature has no life, no death, no coming or going. When the true dharma appears, which means form is form, emptiness is emptiness or sky is blue, tree is green- that energy -BOOM! - will appear, all the sarira will turn to water and disappear. Our teaching is substance, truth, and correct life. Our Zen practicing means attain your true self, find the correct way, truth, and life. Any style of practice is OK -- even using a mantra. But, don't be attached to samadhi -- you must 'pass' samadhi. Zen means 'everyday mind,' not special states of mind. Moment to moment keeping a clear mind is what's important.

"Here is another example. Once one of my students decided to practice with an Indian guru. This guru taught samadhi practice. So my student got a mantra, tried it all the time when he wasn't working, and went deeply into samadhi. All the time he was having a very good feeling. Then one day while doing this mantra, he was crossing the street. The next thing he knew, a car screeched to a halt, almost hitting him, and loudly sounded its horn. The driver shouted at him, 'Keep clear mind!' Then my student was very afraid. The next day he came to me and said, 'Dae Soen Sa Nim, I have a problem. Last night I almost died. I was practicing samadhi, didn't pay attention and was almost hit by a car. Please teach me my mistake.'

"So I explained to him, samadhi practicing takes away your consciousness. But Zen means moment to moment keeping clear mind. What are you doing now? When you are doing something, just do it. Then this kind of accident cannot happen. So don't make samadhi. Don't make anything! Just do it, O.K.?"

Mu Sang Sunim is director of Dharma Zen Center in Los Angeles.

An Eternal Now SG

Though of course, lots of great masters themselves do have shariras, and is not a rare phenomenon.

For example one of the more recent masters, Ven Hsuan Hua --

"About 4,000 to 10,000 of Master Hua's sharira seeds were found after his ashes were scattered, among them included teeth sharira. The many sharira that were found consisted of many colors of white, light yellow, green, blue, sky blue, light blue, black, pink, silver, and other colors. Some of the sharira which were formed on the bones even gleamed like green jade.

One of Master Hua's disciples, moved by the sight of the Master's teeth sharira said, "In his life, the Venerable Master lectured on the Sutras and spoke Dharma in several tens of thousands of assemblies. No wonder his cremation yielded teeth relics!"

Beyond Religion SG

This reminds me of someone who started an ostensibly offensive sounding thread, but with the intention of showing that we do not practice the teachings of buddhism. Most of us got so carried away by our initial angry reaction that we fail to see that we are indeed, not practicing the teachings of Buddhism.

Hence, is it possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even as we look him/ her in the eye?

Spnw07 SG

Hence, is it possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even as we look him/ her in the eye?

Is there such a thread? If possible, pm me. Would like to learn from the experiences of others.

It may indeed be possible that we do not recognise an enlightened being even when he/she or maybe 'it' is just beside us. But there is another more dangerous aspect we have to take note of: some may choose to take refuge in a person who claims to be or appears very much to be enlightened when he/she is really not in mind and soul.

There is no imminent danger in not being able to recognise an unenlightened being, but there is definitely grave danger in not recognising those who pretend to be.

As such, there is still a need for guidelines to be specific on what really is an enlightened person should you get to hear or meet up with one.

An Eternal Now SG

Is there such a thread? If possible, pm me. Would like to learn from the experiences of others.

There is no imminent danger in not being able to recognise an unenlightened being, but there is definitely grave danger in not recognising those who pretend to be.

As such, there is still a need for guidelines to be specific on what really is an enlightened person should you get to hear or meet up with one.

You can usually make a good guess if you are familiar with the maps of enlightenment, however there are not many clear maps out there and the effective ones is the ones that base their maps on the sort of insights/realisations that occur at each level, such as the one by Dharma Dan I shown you earlier. Because I am sort of familiar with the maps, sometimes I can make a good guess what sort of realisations/enlightenment the person has.

Otherwise, you may have to check with someone who is familiar with the maps, or someone who is enlightened himself and familiar with the maps.

That is the only way I know that you can really tell whether he is enlightened -- that is strictly by his wisdom and insights and yogic state (for example in Bodhisattva bhumi models those who are enlightened reaches the yogic state of Simplicity, then One Taste, then Non-meditation). Hence you cannot really tell by him 'appearing to be enlightened', because appearance is a poor indication.

Unlike what many people might think, you cannot tell if he is enlightened by his behaviors alone, such as if he is calm or not. Or compassionate or selfless. Because many unenlightened people are compassionate, selfless, calm, even wise. Many of these features are also related to practices such as metta and samatha, but not necessarily insight.

Of course, usually if he is a lineaged master/teacher, he would have to be enlightened to certain degrees. Because lineage isn't passed down easily unless that practitioner is already highly enlightened.

If a person is very very clear about Insight and Enlightenment and his true nature and ultimate reality and the dharma thoroughly (not just by knowledge and memory but is able to tell you by his own words and experience), and be able to answer you any way you ask him about them, there is high chance he is enlightened.

sinweiy SG

After the fire, the truth shall be revealed...

If no relics were seen...sorry I will take that practioner as a conman...

then u also got to be careful, as it can be the other way around, like AEN mentioned, conman using false relics to let u believe. it works both ways. hence i prefer to say it depends....

maggot SG

Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money

The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people

Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching

By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics

Spnw07 SG

I feel the above paragraph best summarises how an enlightened person would behave or answer when asking him/her questions about true nature and ultimate reality.

But it implies that your knowledge must be near him/her, at least for the theoretical part, or else he/she can be talking about anything that sounds very reasonable and profound, but it may be not the Truth as expounded by the Buddha.

Spnw07 SG

Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money

The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people

Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching

By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics

Agree with one point here though: That if spending money will allow the giver to accumulate the proper and sufficient merits for liberation, then Buddha would surely have wasted his time explaining the Truth about reality and Buddha nature to us.

justdoit77 SG

Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money

The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people

Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching

By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics

true, that's why I only donate money to those temples that I know which is orthodox and established. Pls note that sometimes orthodox temples/monastry also put up some stuffs in charity sale or stuffs like lamps, flower for people to buy. This is for them to package various category of donation amount for the convenient of the donor.

A temple especially those big one that can accomodate thousands of people in one single event need a lot of money to run the operation thus not surprisingly need to raise fund periodically. Unless they learn from other religion to ask the followers to donate 5% of their monthly salary.
Offering money, flower and so on can indeed give us merit. But if we think about the merit, then there will only be good karma, instead of merit. Sometimes I really hope that they can don't mention about things like "light this lamp" to get what merit, coz it really make people attached to it. But the visitors like it, what to do.

justdoit77 SG

Ok...but nowadays those conmen will try very hard to get money

The rituals and light up some lamps etc etc and put a price on those stuffs and emphasis that by doing these will get merits whatsoever are conning people

Spending money can get merits then buddha must have wasted his time preaching

By the way relics are for sale at S$30 can get locally and they are real...disappointed at the cheap sale of relics

sinweiy SG

moreover, there are relic/sharira that no need cremation.

there are enlightened praxis from tibetan, i heard, that when they parinirvana, they just become a beam of light and just disappear, leaving sometime maybe just a strand of hair as "relic".

there is also the "body relic" like that of Master Hui Neng.

Spnw07 SG

Offering money, flower and so on can indeed give us merit. But if we think about the merit, then there will only be good karma, instead of merit. Sometimes I really hope that they can don't mention about things like "light this lamp" to get what merit, coz it really make people attached to it. But the visitors like it, what to do.

Why we need to do good deeds if not for good karma or merits? It's not simply about the vistors liking it, it's about how things are usually done in the secular world.

You pay for something, you get something. You work, you get wages.

You pay $50 to light a lamp, then you tell that fella he/she gets 'nothing'. Next time he/she won't do liao. Won't even go to temple. "What for, what I do amounts to nothing wat" some would think.

If merit is something you 'get' when you realise non-attachment, then seriously lots of things no need to do liao, cos most cannot attain true non-attachment before doing anything mah. What kind of non-attachment benchmark am I talking about? At least first stage of sainthood loh.

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