Can hell really become empty of suffering beings?

last SG · 2008-02-17T13:18:24+00:00

Wrong, Human nature is always present before Buddha nature takes root. All your instincts are human nature, not Buddha nature.As I said, human nature is sim...

Spnw07 SG

Beginners to Buddhism have a hard time; at least for some or most of them.

There are many metaphors, similes, figuratives and analogies in the Buddhist teachings, namely sutras for example; so many that not all can tell exactly which are real statistics and which are just figurative figures and fictional analogies to illustrate a certain point.

For example:

The most commonly known quote for all or most Buddhists is

"I shall not attain Buddhahood until all beings are liberated from hell" (it refers broadly to all that are suffering in the 3 evil realms or those who are not yet free from countless cycles of birth and death).

Now, can hell really be literally empty? I don't know..

Cos no being with consciousness can escape from being attached to the notion of 'self'. As a result, all sentient beings, think, feel and act in accordance to that self-projected ego, to seek ways to satisfy 'it' and hence have to go through samsaric life and death for all their good and bad deeds.

At a certain point in time, some may gain enough spiritual wisdom to be free totally after a few rebirths or during their present lifetime. But how is this compared to other countless beings in 3 evil realms or the entire samasaric cycles experienced by all sentient beings in the ten directions?

Even if at a certain point in time all beings in a certain hell (say Avici hell) is delivered totally by any Bodhisattva or Buddha, many countless 'new' ones will continue be born there to so-called fill in the places that very instant. This is due to karmic forces that no one can prevent or stop.

So is Kstigarbha Bodhisattva's vow a mere metaphor or a figurative to encourage or comfort all of us?

If it is just a metaphor or figurative to encourage, comfort or to warn, then what hope can I have?

It's just like saying 'son, I will not rest till I can see that you know how to really take good care of yourself and at the same time love and care for others like I do for you.'

But your parents are not immortals, they will die, or they will grow sick and not being able to communicate to you, sometimes totally. What if they die or become totally uncommunicative due to sickness before you really become what they have always hope for you to become?

So are your parents making empty promises? Was it just a lecture, a warning, a form of encouragement or reassurance?

The teaching is there, waiting for you to practise. But yet, you are now alone in facing all sorts of temptations and adversity. If you are strong and steadfast in following the teaching, you will survive and grow up to be a useful person. If not, too bad...God (or Buddha) knows what will happen to you...

Are the vows of Bodhisattvas or Buddhas like a rope, a boat or a ray of light for those who can swim or climb? To me, those who are not as strong in mind and heart are like those with no legs, but hands or vice versa. I don't think anyone can climb a mountain or swim with just two legs or two hands.

Many times, I feel very confused and helpless about the whole thing as I try to understand it using the 'non-attachment' concept taught in the Diamond sutra: There is no sentient being to save, there is no Bodhisattva to save them. Something like that.

So during those days I would choose to view the Bodhisattva's vows in a literal way: that one day, all sentient beings in any form of suffering will be helped by Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva and they shall never have to suffer again. That helps me to feel at peace, that helps me to feel loved and cared for. Cos before anyone really succeeds in attaining non-attachment or anatta, they still are attached to the need for love and concern from others, though in different degrees, in different aspects in life.

Try it, dear friends who are still struggling in the cultivation of non-attachment and anatta as taught in the Diamond sutra. Believe in the compassionate vows of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva, Amitabha Buddha or any Bodhisattva LITERALLY.

Believe that they are always with you, even if you have not attained non-attachment. And even if at present or throughout your whole life, you still find yourself caring more about yourself than others. As long as you still believe in, somewhere deep inside you, that ultimately, the Law of Cause and Effect spoken by all Buddhas is true, without any deliberate embellishment or distortion, you will one day see the Truth for yourself in time to come.

Don't hurry, don't panic. But neither should you be lazy. If you are lazy, you will still see the Truth one day, only much, much longer than those who work hard at it, in following Buddha's teachings.

I feel and share your pain, those who are lazy. I feel and share your pain, those who think they are slow. I feel and share your pain, those who still can't achieve non-attachment on their last breaths.

Your life will never have been lived in vain, if you have heard of the name of any Bodhisattva or Buddha, or simply just Namo Buddhaya. (南摩佛） Heard, as in just hearing with your ear, no belief at all.

We will meet some day, cos I have vowed to a Bodhisattva disciple of all Buddhas, be it past, present, about to come, or yet to come.

Till then, I wholeheartedly wish you all the best in your cultivation. May you succeed in freeing yourself from the bondages of greed, anger/hatred and unwholesome views. May you succeed in becoming a fully-enlightened Buddha.

Amituofo! :)

Herzog_Zwei SG

Wrong, hell can never be relived of all sufferring beings, nor can all humans attain enlightenment.

goldevil SG

yah , it's hard to break free from samsara .

knightlll SG

I think finally you understand that sometimes it is better to take nature takes its course

Canihelpyou02 SG

This are so call,Fang Pien fa meng.Buddhism is more than 2500 years old.There are many mixture of culture in it.Very confusing!Many doubt also!

Truth can doubt and question at! No Budha or Bodhisattva is going to punish you for doubting or questioning.Real gold is not afraid of fire.

But,my personal opinion is,it is better to learn the very basic of Buddhism,because Dharma can be experience right here and now,not wait after death.For example,the three Dharma seal is Suffering,permanence and non-self.The 4 noble truth and 8 fold path.This kind of Dharma will not give you doubt.Believe or not it is happening in you right now.It is the truth of all beings.It is founded by the Lord Buddha not create by somebody.Truth is discovered not created.

If you kill the,I, or ego.Then there will be no heaven and hell.No Buddha,no Bodhisattva.

An Eternal Now SG

Been a little busy lately and will be busy for the week... so never post much.

http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm

After the Existence Kalpa, the Destruction Kalpa begins. Within this Destruction Kalpa, there are also 20 small kalpas. During the 19th small kalpa, sentient beings in every world, including the earth world, of the Three Thousand Great Chilocosm will be the first to be destroyed. Then, through aeons of kalpas, as a result of the efforts of many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the Ten Directions in the Three Periods (past, present and future) to enlighten sentient beings, all sentient beings learn to change their wicked ways and lead virtuous lives instead. When many sentient beings transmigrate from the six realms of existence into the human realm and successfully received the guidance, and when hell has emptied so that there isn't a single sentient being left there, then the 20th small kalpa of the Destruction Kalpa starts. Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva () vowed: "As long as hell is not empty, I shall not become Buddha. Only when all sentient beings are guided and saved, will I attain supreme enlightenment." One can thus see that the great vow of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva can be accomplished. All sentient beings can be guided and saved, and he will then attain Buddhahood.

An Eternal Now SG

Wrong, hell can never be relived of all sufferring beings, nor can all humans attain enlightenment.

Of course not. All sentient beings's Buddha Nature is complete and all will attain Buddhahood eventually.

wilsonhao SG

It is possible to become empty, by the karmic force of its beings there. If all hell being's karma have exhausted, then it becomes empty doesnt it?

Spnw07 SG

http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm

Can elaborate further? So we are in which small kalpa now?

From which scripture or sutra can we find the above proof?

Spnw07 SG

It is possible to become empty, by the karmic force of its beings there. If all hell being's karma have exhausted, then it becomes empty doesnt it?

Yah, but if you have read the sutra of Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva's Original Vows, you will know that there are many Avici and Abyss hells in different worlds. Our svaha world has its own Avici and Abyss hell and it's the same for other worlds.

Those who slander the Bodhisattva in thoughts or actions will suffer for so long in 3 evil realms that even after 1000 Buddhas have come and finally gone into Parinibbana, these beings are still suffering very severely for their karma.

The sutra goes on to say that, even after the Avici and Abyss hells they are in has been disintegrated due to exhaustion of karmic force or Destruction/Void kalpa, they will be reborn in the hells of other worlds.

Such pain, such suffering...I feel so much for them and for myself, for I have sinned... and am continuing to sin...

An Eternal Now SG

Can elaborate further? So we are in which small kalpa now?

From which scripture or sutra can we find the above proof?

We are now in the 9th small kalpa of Existence Kalpas. I don't know which sutra though, though I found similar statements in other websites: http://www.dharmaling.org/component/option,com_glossary/func,display/letter,All/page,4/catid,25/Itemid,78/

Kalpa of continuance (tib.: re pe kal pa) Lifespans drop from 80,000 years down to ten years (this is called kalpa of decrease) because people are doing the ten nonvirtues more and more, which creates disturbances in the world. People create more and more powerful weapons. Most people are living in cities. Some people are out in the country when the weapons of destruction are unleashed, and only they survive. The few who survive are overcome with remorse, and decide to give up the ten non-virtues. Lifespans increase from ten years back up to 80,000 years (this is called kalpa of increase). This cycle repeats.
Kalpa of destruction (tib.: jik pe kal pa) In the first nineteen small kalpas of the kalpa of decline, sentient beings in the six lower worlds from hell through the world of heavenly beings gradually disappearAt the beginning of the 20th eon, the rain stops and all vegetation dies, the sun supernovas, and splits into two. Later a third sun forms, and all rivers and streams evaporate. A fourth sun forms, and large lakes dry up. A fifth sun forms, and oceans dry up. A sixth sun forms, and continents go up in smoke. A seventh sun forms, and the planet burns up, which also causes the first level of the form realm to burn up. There are other kalpas of destruction by wind or water. There are also minor destruction eons where inhabitants destroy the planet with weapons, etc.
Kalpa of formation (tib.: chak pe kal pa) According to Abhidharmakosha, the power of the karma of living beings first causes a small wind to arise in space. This wind grows and forms the windy circle thought to lie at the base of a world. Upon this windy circle, a watery circle and then a gold circle take shape, and upon them forms the land, with a Mount Sumeru, seas, and mountains. Then living beings begin to appear, first in the heavens, then in the human world, and successively in the lower of the six worlds, until finally beings appear in the hells. Human lives are immeasurable (a specific number with > 30 zeros) at this point. The formation eon ends when the first being is born in Avichi hell. Lifespans have dropped to 80,000 years at that point.

It's all stated in that article.... more info from http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm:

Before the 19th small kalpa, all the sentient beings that are above the 1st Jhana [1] , and in all the worlds from the 1st Jhana down to the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering, will transmigrate, each according to his own good karmic seeds of the past. Some will transmigrate above the 2nd Jhana; some will surpass Three Fields of Existence (World of Desires, World of Forms, and World of Formless); and others will arrive at Pure Lands of Buddhas elsewhere. At this time, the world of sentient beings will be totally ruined. Only then, at the end of the final phase of the last small kalpa, will the "Three Great Calamities" occur, destroying all the material worlds. These three calamities of fire, water and wind will not occur simultaneously, but each will take its turn. At that time, balance in space will be lost, planets of all the worlds will leave their orbits, and looking from the earth, one will see seven suns appear in the sky at the same time. The suns' fiery heat will burn up all the worlds. The destruction will reach the farthest depths of the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering, including all the worlds of the Three Thousand Great Chilocosm World of Desires, and even the 1st Jhana of the World of Forms.

After the passing of the "Great Fire Calamity" comes the "Great Water Calamity". The worlds from the 2nd Jhana Plane in the World of Form down through the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering will be engulfed by floodwaters.

Next, the Great Wind Calamity follows. All the worlds below the 3rd Jhana down to the Hell of Ceaseless Suffering will be blown away like dust. All the materials will be dispersed into oblivion.

When the above-described Three Great Calamities destroy the world, each calamity will not be over in the passing of a single event. Each event will recur one after another. First, there will be seven Great Fire Calamities followed by one Great Water Calamity. This sequence of seven Fire and one Water Calamities will recur seven times, after which the Great Wind Calamity will finally occur. So altogether, there will be 56 Great Fire Calamities, seven Great Water Calamities, and one Great Wind Calamity, making a total of 64 calamities. When all the worlds go through the course of these Great Calamities and enter the Void Kalpa, then it is truly "End of the World".

Spnw07 SG

It's all stated in that article.... more info from http://www.jenchen.org.sg/vol8no2a.htm

I don't know if I understand your comments and excerpts correctly. So here goes:

After all sentient beings are destroyed in the 19th small kalpa, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of all ten directions will work hard to guide and deliver all beings after the world has reformed.

Then what will follow is:

"When many sentient beings transmigrate from the six realms of existence into the human realm and successfully received the guidance, and when hell has emptied so that there isn't a single sentient being left there, " then the 20th small kalpa of the Destruction Kalpa starts.

The condition that many sentient beings successfully be reborn as humans and received spiritual guidance is achievable, no doubt. But to make sure that the condition 'when hell has emptied' is achieved, is like, wow, I don't know...

Seriously, I doubt If the time period between the 19th small kalpa and the 20th one is sufficient enough for all beings to be guided by bodhisattvas and Buddhas of all ten directions.

Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end.

And even when some of us manage to be reborn as humans after the Destruction era, I wonder how many will hear of the Dharmma and be able to benefit directly to gain liberation from samsaric existence in that one lifetime.

Some of them may have heavy karmic burdens and so even they may hear of the Dharmma, they cannot understand or believe. Then isn't it useless or futile in a way?

My mom, who's a buddhist, has the personal view that Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva has already attained Buddhahood but is just manifesting as a Tenth-stage Bodhisattva. I find it to be quite an reasonable assumption.

Hell can never be empty. The instant one batch is delivered, another batch appears...But of course, we have no proofs, except by inferring from scriptures on our own. Hence I express my doubts here for any wise Buddhist brother/sisters to shed light into this great vow.

Is the vow to be taken literally or figuratively? How should we interpret this greatest vow by the Bodhisattva?

sinweiy SG

I don't know if I understand your comments and excerpts correctly. So here goes:

After all sentient beings are destroyed in the 19th small kalpa, the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of all ten directions will work hard to guide and deliver all beings after the world has reformed.

Then what will follow is:

SW: emptied as in no longer fit for beings to be there any more, since the 4 elemental destruction is coming perhaps. this is refering to our saha world(Threefold worlds). hell beings if not finished their "sentences" are transfered to other hell realms in another threefold world perhaps.

Seriously, I doubt If the time period between the 19th small kalpa and the 20th one is sufficient enough for all beings to be guided by bodhisattvas and Buddhas of all ten directions.

SW: the key word is Before instead of between. "Before the 19th small kalpa...."

Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end.

SW: what u mean?

so "9th small kalpa of the Existence era" is like our "world" is 29 years old out of 80 years lifespan. 20 years for formation/birth; 20 for existence/old age; 20 for destruction/sickness; 20 for ending/death. so 41 years old is starting of destruction/sickness. at such an age onward, our 3 posions normally are more unbothered or 看得开 already, hence the metaphor in another perspective.

SW: after? what after? no more after already mah. BEFORE destruction era, all go to 2nd Jhana heaven already. like 40 plus person, got some "stillness" in them per se.

Some of them may have heavy karmic burdens and so even they may hear of the Dharmma, they cannot understand or believe. Then isn't it useless or futile in a way?

SW: no more "them" liao mah. unless, those transfered to other threefold world. yes, "heavy karmic burdens" still remain. you have to see the point from Our saha world(ourself) and the point from Other threefold world(others). there's a metaphoric understanding.

SW: yes, both conventional and ultimate is true.

Is the vow to be taken literally or figuratively? How should we interpret this greatest vow by the Bodhisattva?

SW: Within our saha threefold world, it's emptied. then Earth Store simply go and manifest in other threefold world . Even manifest Concurrently also can. no big deal. it act as a tool of Bodhi teaching. ;)

Spnw07 SG

Seriously, I doubt If the time period between the 19th small kalpa and the 20th one is sufficient enough for all beings to be guided by bodhisattvas and Buddhas of all ten directions.

1) SW: the key word is Before instead of between. "Before the 19th small kalpa...."

Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end.

2) SW: what u mean?

3) SW: after? what after? no more after already mah. BEFORE destruction era, all go to 2nd Jhana heaven already. like 40 plus person, got some "stillness" in them per se.

Some of them may have heavy karmic burdens and so even they may hear of the Dharmma, they cannot understand or believe. Then isn't it useless or futile in a way?

4) SW: no more "them" liao mah. unless, those transfered to other threefold world. yes, "heavy karmic burdens" still remain. you have to see the point from Our saha world(ourself) and the point from Other threefold world(others). there's a metaphoric understanding.

5) SW: yes, both conventional and ultimate is true.

Is the vow to be taken literally or figuratively? How should we interpret this greatest vow by the Bodhisattva?

6) SW: Within our saha threefold world, it's emptied. then Earth Store simply go and manifest in other threefold world . Even manifest Concurrently also can. no big deal. it act as a tool of Bodhi teaching. ;)

Pt 1> Where does the word 'before' come from? Which or whose quote are you referring to?

Pt 2, 3 and 4> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say..

Pt 5> Why is both conventional and ultimate true?

Pt 6> Earth Store Bodhisattva has gone through countless kalpas, surely there are kalpas when hell is emptied, for example: Destruction kalpas in saha world. But that doesn't count as hell being empty right?

My question is on what really counts as hell being empty in Earth Store's vows.

sinweiy SG

Pt 1> Where does the word 'before' come from? Which or whose quote are you referring to?

SW: am refering to AEN's quote, "Before the 19th small kalpa, all the sentient beings that are above the 1st Jhana [1] ,.."

Pt 2, 3 and 4> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say..

SW: #2 i also don't know what you mean. you say "Furthermore, if we are indeed in the 9th small kalpa of the Existence era, we have wait for a very unimaginably long time before the Destruction era comes and for it to end."

i tot the longer time it is the better for all to be liberated?

Pt 5> Why is both conventional and ultimate true?

SW: you never heard of conventional and ultimate truth? conventional is said for people to understand. we still need duality to understand. but ultimately, words cannot describe the ultimate truth. like a finger pointing to the moon, the finger pointing is conventional, the moon is the actual/ultimate.

SW: it count from the Perspective of saha world. but doesn't count from the Perspective of Dharma world. there... it's non-dual.

My question is on what really counts as hell being empty in Earth Store's vows.

SW: that say "When one realised one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one looses one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings."

when u say count, it's correct, when you say don't count, it's also correct. because, i non-dual. get what i mean. (not that i really non-dual, just example only :-)

it depends on which Persepctive you are seeing. just let it be.

Spnw07 SG

SW: am refering to AEN's quote, "Before the 19th small kalpa, all the sentient beings that are above the 1st Jhana [1] ,.."

Pt 2, 3 and 4> I don't quite understand what you're trying to say..

i tot the longer time it is the better for all to be liberated?

Pt 5> Why is both conventional and ultimate true?

SW: it count from the Perspective of saha world. but doesn't count from the Perspective of Dharma world. there... it's non-dual.

My question is on what really counts as hell being empty in Earth Store's vows.

SW: that say "When one realised one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all sentient beings are Buddhas. But if one looses one's True self/mind/buddhanature, then all Buddhas are sentient beings."

when u say count, it's correct, when you say don't count, it's also correct. because, i non-dual. get what i mean. (not that i really non-dual, just example only :-)

it depends on which Persepctive you are seeing. just let it be

Your explanation is too deep for me. But thanks for taking the time and effort to do so.

I have read about the Buddha providing statistics on how many would be reborn in Western Paradise from our saha world and I somehow felt like searching for clues that gives us a clear answer as to when Earth Store's Bodhisattva vow would come true.

I wanted to find hope. But yet clueless and doubtful as to how things should be interpreted for Earth Store's Bodhisattva's vows.

Maybe the only person who can answer me is the Bodhisattva or the Buddha himself...

sinweiy SG

Your explanation is too deep for me. But thanks for taking the time and effort to do so.

I wanted to find hope. But yet clueless and doubtful as to how things should be interpreted for Earth Store's Bodhisattva's vows.

Maybe the only person who can answer me is the Bodhisattva or the Buddha himself...

will also have to interpreted all Bodhisattva vow. all's got the same significant. like...

you know there's the Bodhisattva's first universal vow of "Sentient beings is boundless, I vow to liberate them all. "

and Guan Yin vow to answer the cries and pleas of all beings and to liberate all beings from their own karmic woes.

Nestigator SG

its all in the bodhisattvas' minds

Herzog_Zwei SG

Of course not. All sentient beings's Buddha Nature is complete and all will attain Buddhahood eventually.

As I said before, not all sentient beings have Buddha nature.

An Eternal Now SG

As I said before, not all sentient beings have Buddha nature.

All sentient beings have Buddha Nature.

If you say otherwise then you have no ideas what is Buddha Nature.

Without Buddha Nature, we cannot even be. Hearing, seeing, all are the functions of Buddha Nature.