Layman interpretations needed: Non-attachment VS Human needs

last SG · 2008-01-14T19:10:39+00:00

I think I can share this experience I have. I was very attached to someone I loved very much. And I would always wanna be with her, even seeing her makes me...

bohiruci SG

no spwn ,you see ,I am not admonishing you.All of us lead busy life
as i always on the move during daytime

I dun mind sharing all the topics in skype , but as in what Buddha said
teachings is only a tool ,if one doesnt illuminate ones mind with Greater reflection ,it is very difficult to convince people the fruits of practice

The guiding of reflection must be constant ,like one who follows a guru

One must know our mind is always tends to unguided and not willing to be leashed down to practice ,distracted by the wonders and attachment to the material worlds .

You can ask AEN , i have been sharing those voluminous discussion and nobody ask a question .which is pretty difficult for me to gauge the level of Wisdom in individual .

So if u request for teachings , I wont stingly keep them ,its a matter of discussion and exchange in a open forum .

Rolling Eyes Wink Wink Wink

justdoit77 SG

yes, why leh.

justdoit77 SG

Maybe he see that your thinking is so mature so curious.

Spnw07 SG

Huh? I thought I sound childish and naive though...

Spnw07 SG

I can see from your point of view. I also agree with them. But the above are goals or eventual results, not the process. The process for every individual, (depending on his/her own spiritual intelligence or whether past good deeds have ripened) is very painful, very abstract and complex for most who are trying to achieve the goals of non-attachment and yet maintain compassion at the same time.

And again I wish to stress that I'm not saying that one should not try and keep on practising, I just hope for people to understand and empathise deeply with how others are struggling to achieve those goals or cultivation levels mentioned in the scriptures or in your post above.

I personally feel that such empathy will help to built the foundation for true compassion as required in walking the Bodhisattva path.

Spnw07 SG

AEN, thanks for posting many articles on love relationships and non-attachment. However, my main interest and concern is at present restricted to parents, friends and colleagues.

Romantic or marital relationships are indeed part of the picture and relevant, but as I already know to some extent that romantic or marital relationships are a very narrow kind of love, I would try not to pursue or seek them whenever possible. Therefore in a way, eliminating the need to struggle with my practice of non-attachment on these areas. I'm doing a different type of research on love relationships: the short and long term pro and cons of love relationships and marriage for a Buddhist like me. But naturally non-attachment will be part of my research as well.

I will post my views about romance and marriage if I manage to find adequate and relevant data to show and support the existence of the various pro and cons in the most objective light possible.

An Eternal Now SG

I do not see that as a goal but the practice itself. If one practices, then things become easier and the struggle dissolves gradually... only because of lack of 'openness', 'space', we are constantly in a struggle with ourselves. Practice in Buddhism (as I heard that Yamizi heard it from my dharma teacher himself) is supposed to be blissful rather than a struggle. If we practice correctly it is liberation, not struggle. Then we just keep integrating this practice with our lives. It is a process of liberation.

So the key is learning to live in an open acceptance of whatever arises in the moment. As Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said in the article,

The everyday practice of dzogchen is simply to develop a complete carefree acceptance, an openness to all situations without limit.

We should realize openness as the playground of our emotions and relate to people without artificiality, manipulation or strategy.

We should experience everything totally, never withdrawing into ourselves as a marmot hides in its hole. This practice releases tremendous energy which is usually constricted by the process of maintaining fixed reference points. Referentiality is the process by which we retreat from the direct experience of everyday life.

Being present in the moment may initially trigger fear. But by welcoming the sensation of fear with complete openness, we cut through the barriers created by habitual emotional patterns.

When we engage in the practice of discovering space, we should develop the feeling of opening ourselves out completely to the entire universe. We should open ourselves with absolute simplicity and nakedness of mind. This is the powerful and ordinary practice of dropping the mask of self-protection. (continued in URL)

An Eternal Now SG

ok.. look forward to ur post Smile

Spnw07 SG

I hope you or any Buddhist would share their personal experiences in trying to practise non-attachment while maintaining compassion. And speak about how exactly to achieve it while trying to meet our personal needs and/or that of others.

It is my observation that most people sound as if they don't have any difficulties, and if they do, they explain that they could understand because they have practised. But nobody ever mentioned about cases whereby even if they have tried to practise as taught, but as they still couldn't understand the essence of the teaching, they feel very lost and frustrated.

Yes, we may cut through barriers by welcoming our fears with complete openness. But how to achieve complete openness? You would need wisdom. But yet they are lacking in wisdom, hence even simple things sounds like rocket science to them. It is a catch-22 situation. It sounds as if all Buddhists has attained non-attachment with compassion except for me.

If there are so many Buddhists who has attained non-attachment with compassion, why is that the sutra mentioned that Kstigarbha Bodhisattva still needs to make a second new vow to save those who fall in evil realms after he has delivered them to heavenly realms? It is mentioned that Kstigarbha Bodhisattva started to observe sentient beings of our world after his personal deliverance and his spiritual insight into the fates of sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age tells him that many would need his help very badly.

If the fundamental evil seed of any individual has not be properly resolved with external help, that individual will continue to fall into evil realms shortly after he has been delivered by the Bodhisattva into heavenly realms and has outlived his heavenly lifespan.

May I say that one of those reasons is very likely that non-attachment with compassion is not something that can be achieved in a single lifetime. Because simply their previous good deeds or cultivated wisdom has not ripened yet to understand and practise non-attachment correctly.

If we mention about success stories, we also have to mention about failure stories.

I don't speak for others, but for me, I need to understand at least a bit in order to practise, and not just practise for the sake of practise.

Still, I feel lost as what AEN has mentioned are more of textbook and answers from Venerables, which will definitely be conceptually and clinically correct. But lacks personal touch.

bohiruci SG

for your info ,spwn ,my mum is having a stroke and left side of her body is paralysed

I told this before in the forum , well I could say I am not going to stop at my career , becos better career means bringing more $ for her treatment

thats the mundane concept of non-attachment

Isis SG

x2.

It also about not pushing things away, in an attempt to let go.

Isis SG

I see it as being filial piety.

erh sorry to hear about it too.

Amituofuo.

/\

Smile

Spnw07 SG

I'm sorry to hear about what is happening to your mum. I will pray for her, to feel as comfortable and peaceful as possible with her condition. When the physical condition cannot be helped further with present medical technology, the only thing is to help her find peace and strength inside herself.

bohiruci SG

its okie , i guess the past 2 years is tough , but i have never stop , i think Buddhism give me the strength to overcome life's adversity

I couldnt possibly go back to my old job , which is so lowly paid ,

that maybe ,spwn ,to you could be an example of little form of non-attachment
Cool

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by Spnw07:
If there are so many Buddhists who has attained non-attachment with compassion, why is that the sutra mentioned that Kstigarbha Bodhisattva still needs to make a second new vow to save those who fall in evil realms after he has delivered them to heavenly realms? It is mentioned that Kstigarbha Bodhisattva started to observe sentient beings of our world after his personal deliverance and his spiritual insight into the fates of sentient beings in the Dharma Ending Age tells him that many would need his help very badly.

If the fundamental evil seed of any individual has not be properly resolved with external help, that individual will continue to fall into evil realms shortly after he has been delivered by the Bodhisattva into heavenly realms and has outlived his heavenly lifespan.

Ksitigarbha Bodhisattva and all other Bodhisattvas are examples of compassion without attachment. He was compassionate but his compassion never obstructs his liberation.

In the Diamond Sutra it is stated that The Buddha said to Subhūti: "The bodhisattvas and mahāsattvas should subdue their thoughts like this: All the different types of sentient beings, whether they be born from eggs, born from a womb, born from moisture or born spontaneously; whether or not they have form; whether they abide in perceptions or no perceptions; or without either perceptions or non-perceptions, I save them by causing them to enter nirvana without remainder. And when these immeasurable, countless, infinite number of sentient beings have been liberated, in actuality, no sentient being has attained liberation. Why is this so? Subhūti, If a bodhisattva abides in the signs of self, person, sentient being, or life-span, she or he is not a bodhisattva."
-------------
"Subhūti, what do you think? You should not claim that the Tathāgata thinks 'I will save sentient beings.' Subhūti, do not think such a thing. Why? There are in fact no sentient beings for the Tathāgata to save. If there were sentient beings for the Tathāgata to save, it would mean that the Tathāgata holds the notions of self, person, sentient being, and life span. Subhūti, when the Tathāgata says 'I,' there is actually no ' I.' Yet immature beings take this to be an I. Subhūti, as far as immature beings are concerned, the Tathāgata says that they are not immature beings."

In the process of saving sentient beings he is not attached to the notion of saving sentient beings... he is not attached to 'I' or 'others' (sentient being).

Whatever he does he does it without a trace.. if he helped others, did good deeds, practiced generosity, nothing leaves a trace in his consciousness.. In the Diamond Sutra it is said "Subhūti, the merits attained by bodhisattvas who practice charity without abiding in its signs are also incalculable like this. Subhūti, the bodhisattvas need only focus themselves on this teaching."

Like I said in the other post by Marcteng: "Whatever good or bad deeds done, too, must not leave any trace and this is most important.. normal ppl cannot understand the importance of this because to have no idea of how conciousness functions.

Whatever anger arises when it is gone it should not leave any trace, and whatever good deeds done too."

And so we carry out the noble practice of the Bodhisattva without getting caught up in dualistic notions or attached to the the 'form' of practicing, generosity, 'saving' 'sentient beings', etc. Every moment is self liberating. Compassion without attachment.

And as my dharma teacher said, transform the energy of vows and compassion into action. If one has a deep felt compassion but it turned into an object of attachment then it may be because he has not fully transformed his vows into action... and instead of practicing and acting got stuck in mental thinking instead.

Still, I feel lost as what AEN has mentioned are more of textbook and answers from Venerables, which will definitely be conceptually and clinically correct. But lacks personal touch.

It's not textbook answer if you transform it into a living experience. Try to feel the essence rather than just read past the advise.

An Eternal Now SG

IMHO, don't need to talk about 'total'... start bit by bit Wink

An Eternal Now SG

This is particularly important and love and compassion takes a different perspective (that of a Bodhisattva):

One shows concern, compassion for others but does not make the other into an object of egoic clinging/addiction.

This is unconditional love for not only one or a few, but all sentient beings.

My reply in the other topic:

The difference is, is one able to transcend one's attachment to family, or spouse, or anything? You can love them and that is fine, but is there any attachment to them as 'one's posession'? You can't live without them... why? Because it is the grasping of the 'self'... your 'self' holding onto feelings, emotions, and attachment on someone. What if some day your loved ones has to depart from you? Is there a pain in your heart because you have developed such a deep conditioning, your memories, the things you all did together, that you find so precious and have become deeply identified with... and yet all that has to come to an end. What hurts is your ego, your attachment, the sense that my possession has to depart from me... When a thought of losing your loved ones arise, does it lead to fear surging through your entire bodymind? This is surely a sign of deep rooted conditioning and attachment due to the illusory 'self' and the posessiveness of self (attaching to 'mine').

So the problem is not with love but with attachment and possession, and if that is dissolved/liberated then there is no problem. Your love does not have to be tainted with strong grasping on feelings and possession, though of course that is not very easy but can be achieved through gradual practise.

If there is unconditional love... the attachment to feeling, persons, identification, the sense of certain people as your 'posession' can dissolve... and yet it is not unfeeling because you have pure unconditional love and compassion for each of them.

And this unconditional love, being unconditioned, expands to include every single person... in this way there is no exceptions.

As my taiwanese teacher said... one's obsession with someone can be 'expanded'... to become the unconditional love and compassion encompass everyone, like a bodhisattva.. and this love is not just fixated or focused on a single person. A bodhisattva treats every sentient being equally with compassion and sees the Buddha Nature within each sentient being. He is not obsessed with feelings, possessions, etc.. therefore if say, his wife were to pass away, he would not suffer because of his self-centered attachments to persons and feelings. Maybe he may be sad for a while, but he didn't fixate his love and attachment entirely on that single person (which would then be attachment to the form of a 'self' and 'other person') -- his compassion and love is also 'shared' among all other sentient beings... a form of 'greater love'.. so he does not feel so much of the suffering of losing one's attached possession.

Spnw07 SG

I do understand what you mean, AEN. What I meant by 'personal touch' is when we talk about Buddhist concepts, can we also share our personal life experiences when trying to cultivate non-attachment with compassion?

What is like for you, AEN? Have you experienced the pain of losing something/someone very dear to you? Have you been bullied or humiliated before? How did you react? What do you feel when you recall about the incident now?

Explaining Buddhist concepts using personal life examples helps to make Buddhist lessons come to life, especially if the examples are real-life accounts of modern Buddhists, not about Buddhists who lives and are dead at least 100 years before us.

Spnw07 SG

"You, Kishitigarbha, have observed that I have diligently worked for a long time to release hard and obstinate suffering criminal beings. As for those who have not improved, if they fall into evil or suffer from past karma retribution, you should remember what I gently taught and repeated to you in Trayastrimsa Heaven Palace - that is, to release all those beings in the Saha World, until the coming of Maitreya, from suffering forever; and to encounter Buddhas and receive the Dharma. "

At that time, all the incarnated forms of Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha from many worlds gathered into a single form and said to Buddha tearfully, "I have been instructed by Buddha for long aeons. I have gained inconceivable divine power and wisdom. The boundless worlds are filled with my incarnations. In order to make them take refuge in and respect the Three Treasures, to escape from life and death forever, and achieve Nirvana's bliss, I have incarnated billions of bodies in every world. Every one I have incarnated has taught hundreds, thousands or billions of people.

Even if their good deeds within the Buddhadharma are as little as a hair, a drop, a grain of sand, or a speck of dust, I will gradually save them and make them gain great benefits. Please World-Honored One, do not be concerned for those beings in the future." Bodhisattva Kishitigarbha said to Buddha three times, "Please World-Honored One, do not be concerned for future beings with bad karma."

We can infer from the bold letter 'tearfully' that the Bodhisattva is expressing human emotions here. I personally don't believe that non-attached implies that if sentient beings are suffering greatly, the practitioner says to himself "I will not cry because I don't want to be attached to people. I must not show any emotions."

Does crying means that you are attached to the object or person? Or does it show in the case you have great compassion?

Compassion is a kind of universal love applied on living things so I guess the word 'object' doesn't apply, but other than that, I wish to say that Kisitigarbha Bodhisattva's honest show of human emotions and compassion endears me to him.

An Eternal Now SG

I have not experience losing someone close to me for anytime recent -- but what I am speaking of is general, includes all emotions. Even if you do not experience losing someone, try to see what happens when you something small... something bad happens to you, whatever.

Like I said earlier, this is not about suppressing or rejecting emotions. Non-attachment is not like that.

"You must distinguish between passive letting go and active letting go. Active letting go to remain totally present, clear-sighted, uninvolved and actively alert."

Emotions arising is your reality at that moment, it is just as it is. It is also an expression of the clarity of your true nature. Rejecting or suppressing emotions does NOT bring enlightenment, it is the seeing and experiencing of the emotions (and whatever arises as your Reality at that moment, i.e. the tune of the music, the words appearing on the screen, the sound of airplane passing by) with clarity that brings enlightenment. Suppression of emotions is not really the way out, and may even cause stronger neuroses that lays dormant... but may strike back with greater force.

It is very important instead to EXPERIENCE/bring awareness to the emotions and whatever arises with intense presence and openness, instead of going into story telling. This is the same as what Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche said. In this way the emotions are allowed to be as they are without alteration or reactions and they will dissolve themselves in its own accord... let it leave no trace. There needs to be trust and fearlessness in this (reality).
I wrote previously:

There is no problems at all with whatever arises, there is no problems with emotions also, only when we dwell into the content of the 'me' story that fuels the body-mind surge of emotions and feelings, bringing up a network of pain, suffering, and even that is also not a 'problem'. It is only as it is. Just come back to this moment of experience, to see (aware) emotions as what it is - emotions, thoughts as what it is - thoughts.

"The only way out is to simply observe. This allows us to take note of our physical reactions, or mental attitudes and patterns in her motivations at the exact moment they appear on it involves no evaluation, no analysis which is based on memory."

"In simple openness which is welcoming you will come to accept and get to know your negative feelings, desires and fears. Once welcomed and nondirected attention to these feelings will burn themselves up, leaving only silence."

Just my 2 cents

p.s. more on letting go:

From a pure insight practice point of view, you cant ever fundamentally let go of anything, so I sometimes wish the popularity of this misleading and indifference-producing admonition would decline, or at least be properly explained. However, if you simply investigate the truth of the Three Characteristics of the sensations that seemed to be a solid thing, you will come to the wondrous realization that reality is continually letting go of itself! Thus, let it go at its best actually means, dont give a bunch of transient sensations an excessive sense of solidity. It does not mean, stop feeling or caring, nor does it mean, pretend that the noise in your mind is not there.

~ Theravadin teacher, Dharma Dan

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