icchantika

last SG · 2007-12-19T10:16:39+00:00

I think somehow everyone has encounter the Dhamma. Just that it varies in degree and in label. Dhamma doesn't has to mean to be Buddhism. Probably somewhere...

Herzog_Zwei SG

That's your problem(or rather the votary of the Lotus Sutra 's problem), not the problem of the icchantika. Icchantika can be icchantika for all eternity because they are and will be born without faith.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Question is whether a person who is born without faith can believe in any religion. It is not a mental position.

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by yamizi:
Compare to people who don't know Dhamma nowadays, if we are to put them on the icchantika standard, they are really nothing as compared to Devadetta. Despite all these, he still received the commission by Sakyamuni Buddha Himself.

yes the example of Devadetta is giving in example #4 above...still i think there are those who are even more worst or deluded than Devadetta. Devadetta still can receive, only no faith. there are those that cannot receive(or even reject) and also cannot have faith.
nevertheless, both, even though enter evil realm, but after karma is exhausted, they return back and can easily learn dharma faster than those that didn't even have chance to slander. that's wat i think is the principle.
a seed planted in the alaya, simply reap faster, like example of Devadetta.

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yamizi SG

Haha sinweiy and HZ are still restricted to conventional understanding on icchantika.

No wonder Sakyamuni Buddha kept stressing in the earlier chapters that LS is Nan Xing Nan Jie (difficult to believe in; difficult to comprehend).

The idea and spirit of LS is to turn the impossible possible by the practice and self-example of the Teacher of the Law. Of course the both of you might not have touched by LS therefore it is very hard for you to comprehend.

AEN had answered to HZ that all mental state is possible to change. There were pious who become free-thinkers and vice versa.

It all matters to what you want to do to your life.

Say if you hope to inspire icchantika then how are you going to achieve it. If by thinking praying to some buddha or chant some sutra will change the mindset of icchantika, well then that's too bad, at least that's not what the LS had taught.

No offence intended, but to safeguard HZ and sinweiy kamma for insisting icchantika can't be changed, I choose to refrain from sharing LS in this point view at this juncture =)

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by yamizi:
No offence intended, but to safeguard HZ and sinweiy kamma for insisting icchantika can't be changed, I choose to refrain from sharing LS in this point view at this juncture =)

yamizi oh yamizi...i think u had seriously seriously misunderstood my post, now where in my post did i state that i insist icchantika can't be changed? please you are putting words in people's mouth.

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An Eternal Now SG

What are you talking about? ALL persons are born without faith. A baby cannot possibly have faith, he don't even know anything.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Then how can a baby trust its parents?

An Eternal Now SG

I didn't know you need a religion to trust your parents.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Talking about faith not about religion.

An Eternal Now SG

One who is just borned doesn’t know anything about ‘faith’ or ‘trust’. Trust is learnt. When a baby is first borned, he doesn’t know anything at all. When hungry, he just cry.

Herzog_Zwei SG

How can a baby trust its parents and even know who actually is its parents? That is instinctive trust between parent and child.

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by yamizi:
No wonder Sakyamuni Buddha kept stressing in the earlier chapters that LS is Nan Xing Nan Jie (difficult to believe in; difficult to comprehend).

actually, same goes for AS(Amitabha sutra). the word "believe" appeared 9 times to be exact.

"Shariputra, just as I am now one who praises the merit and virtue of all Buddhas, all those Buddhas equally praise my inconceivable merit and virtue, saying these words: 'Shakyamuni Buddha can complete extremely rare and difficult deeds in the Saha land, in the Evil Time of the Five Turbidities, in the midst of the Kalpa Turbidity, the View Turbidity, the Affliction Turbidity, the Living Beings Turbidity, and the Life Turbidity. He can attain Annutara-Samyak-Sambodhi and, for the sake of living beings, speak this Dharma which in the whole world is hard to believe.'

"Shariputra, you should know that I, in the Evil Time of the Five Turbidities, practice these difficult deeds, attain Annutara-Samyak-Sambodhi, and for all the world speak this Dharma, difficult to believe, extremely difficult!"
http://web.archive.org/web/20041011204348/http://www.amitabha.com/sutras/amitabha_sutra/ami_sutra.htm

ps: dunno why ppl this day like to so fast jump into conclusion. better dun underestimate ppl. better be humble.

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Herzog_Zwei SG

Originally posted by sinweiy:

actually, same goes for AS(Amitabha sutra). the word "believe" appeared 9 times to be exact.

"Shariputra, just as I am now one who praises the merit and virtue of all Buddhas, all those Buddhas equally praise my inconceivable merit and virtue, saying these words: 'Shakyamuni Buddha can complete extremely rare and difficult deeds in the Saha land, in the Evil Time of the Five Turbidities, in the midst of the Kalpa Turbidity, the View Turbidity, the Affliction Turbidity, the Living Beings Turbidity, and the Life Turbidity. He can attain Annutara-Samyak-Sambodhi and, for the sake of living beings, speak this Dharma which in the whole world is [b]hard to believe.'

"Shariputra, you should know that I, in the Evil Time of the Five Turbidities, practice these difficult deeds, attain Annutara-Samyak-Sambodhi, and for all the world speak this Dharma, difficult to believe, extremely difficult!"
http://web.archive.org/web/20041011204348/http://www.amitabha.com/sutras/amitabha_sutra/ami_sutra.htm

ps: dunno why ppl this day like to so fast jump into conclusion. better dun underestimate ppl. better be humble.

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[/b]

Not jumping to conclusion but if so, why create a special class known as icchantika?

Ser~pent SG

Knowledge without faith turn one into icchantika is 'Psycho' ! Laughing

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