Gray ethical and karmic issues

last SG · 2007-11-13T21:13:23+00:00

Being a high officer in the army cant stop war , only being a strong and wise ruler can. Dont get too disturbed by this hypothetical question.

cycle SG

If our country is under attack in a war, as citiczens we must fight back to proctect our people n land. If our country is the attacker, then I think we sld voice our concerns or rebuttals to advert such war. And if we r citizens of a tyranny government, which is most unfortunate, then we shld try to let the world know such situation so as to help our countymen fr futher sufferings.

To "use wisdom' n " to follow the heart" finally comprises a basic direction, that is to always see what is the motive of your actions, n the outcome of such actions. Of cos it is not easy for most people like us who are defiled, or most young ppl like you as life experiences are limited. But doesn't mean this is the "fault' or limitations of Buddhism. It may only shows that our understanding of the Buddhadharma is limited n need futher guildence. Smile

vince69 SG

apology for the intrusion... this is an interesting lesson... but this do draws a few question
1) what if in the process of killing this one robber, he also kill ten other bystander?
2) what if after killing this one robber and the other ten bystander, he found that the gun (weapon) this robber is going to use only left with blanks or no bullets in them?
3) what if after killing this one robber and the other ten bystander, he found that the gun (weapon) this robber is going to use only left with blanks or no bullets in them, plus this one robber is not really a robber and the "plan" he learned of does not exist at all (hearsay only)?
what then would the outcome be?
just a thought..........

*edit: to add... this lesson a bit like the movie...Minority Report

Herzog_Zwei SG

Hey vince69,
can you tell me when was gunpowder invented and the history of this story is far older than the invention of gunpowder unless the poor robber was fooling around with Indra's Thunder.

justdoit77 SG

It doesn't matter whether the gunpowder is invented that time or not.
To my understanding, what he trying to say is although the intention is good, but due to his ignorance, his action caused people to suffer more.

vince69 SG

Smile

a Grey ethical and karmic issues

Grey in a sense that there are multiple way to see things, and can result in both rights and wrongs

Herzog_Zwei SG

And thus should recieve bad karma?

justdoit77 SG

yes, but is lighter than if the person do it out of bad intention.

Spnw07 SG

I have the same thoughts and doubts as you, mahawarrior. If my country is the attacker, how do I justify myself when killing people out in the battlefield? We are all just following orders, but what happens to our conscience, our innate compassion for fellow human beings?

I think I would probably try to think of ways to 'siam' from having to fight in the war, if I have parents or wife and children. But would consider seriously about suicide if I'm single and both my parents have passed away.

But then again, suicide is not something that is easy for a not so courageous person like me. Dilemma really, serious dilemma.

Advice like 'use my wisdom' and 'follow my heart' from fellow Buddhists and Venerable Masters alike are just too vague or profound for someone as average as I am in the practice of Buddhist teachings.

Hence, now, I find the need to explore more layman's perspective about the dilemmas of war, be it from the side of the attacker/defender/allies of either.

'Use your wisdom' is simply not applicable for someone like me, who's so ordinary in intelligence and love for life, that I don't have any 'wisdom' to use at all.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Technically according to the view that if one's actions are done out of no free will(Paul Tibbets knew someone must do it), it should be neutral or minor karma which is a kind of karma.(AEN likes to disagree on this point)

An Eternal Now SG

If our country is the attacker, or if we find ourselves in a Nazi army, we have to oppose it even with our lives. Otherwise by participating, we will be gaining the collective karma of the country as a whole.

Of course at such circumstances it is very difficult for us. Either way we'll suffer. But to parcipate in killing the innocents is much much worse.

An Eternal Now SG

In Buddhism, it doesn't matter whether you action is done with or without free will or 'unfree' will (perhaps just a matter of degree of karma but nevertheless there certainly will still be karma), but as long as there is the will to do it you will be creating the karma.

Ultimately, you have "free will" even when you are forced by a Nazi government to fight. Even if it means a choice to die or kill the innocents.

Herzog_Zwei SG

Then you must have the same "free will" to die for your choice, but why would you want to? Why don't you have the free will to go commit suicide as you living is polluting the planet? Sounds like nonsense? But nevertheless it is true.

An Eternal Now SG

Bcos life is precious, and furthermore, living does not need to mean polluting the Earth. I mean it does, but you can control the level of pollution.

Herzog_Zwei SG

You can control the level of pollution but unless you control the population of living people, it is meaningless to control pollution.

An Eternal Now SG

We can control population, but not through silly means like encouraging suicide and killings.

jacqn SG

i think it is being unfair to AEN about your statement. no human being knows everything. why must figure out and answer you just because you ask? we here do not owe you anything. if you want to know, go figure out on your own.

jacqn SG

you do not see yourself as living to pollute the earth. instead find out how you can add value to the others, be it animals or human being. then you will be as asset, not liability.

i had once thought my presence is an extra to this world and i should just give up. its all boils down to self realisation and wisdom to be able to pull yourself up.

and find the answers for your own sake, not opposing in every way. do you really find happiness in creating anger between you and the others??

Herzog_Zwei SG

Someone wanted to find out about the karma involved but since AEN did post something about karma being whether there must be a concious decision to execute the act and the mindset behind it. Now TS wants to guess the exact karma, I told him to go figure.

Herzog_Zwei SG

What is your smart idea then? As far as I know, suicide, genocide and murder happens to be several of the fastest ways to remove human population.

annoy-you-must SG

How about working up your rank in your army? And when you've gained enough authority within your people, you can stop the war. Isn't that better than opposing it head-on knowing that you'll probably be killed as a 'traitor'?

When you have a high enough rank and authority, you can have enough power to get up close personally to the very person who started the war (i.e. the dictator). Like I've suggested, you can assasinate him at that point of time to stop the war.

If I'm in that position, I'll probably do that.

But then, to prove that you are 'loyal' to your country's cause and work up your rank, you'll have to do things that go against your own moral values.

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