Did buhdda want us to believe in him ???

cheskiz SG

As above.

My answer is no and i also believe he did not want us to believe in his teachings. No offence, like we are all here to learn and there is no benchmark between right and wrong.

All is equal in buhddism..So peace and share our views.

An Eternal Now SG

Faith is required. Faith in Buddha's enlightenment, faith in the ability of the triple gems to lead us to enlightenment is what is necessary for all Buddhist practitioners, without which one cannot start on one's path.

But the path of a Buddhist practitioner is nothing about blind faith, it is about testing out, practicing and seeing what is realised for ourselves. Countless people since Buddha's times including today have attained enlightenment, and we too can attain enlightenment. We can see the reality that is being taught is in accordance with our experience, and that the dharma truly is able to bring perfect bliss and end sufferings. Gradually with genuine experiences, our confidence in the Buddha's teachings naturally increases.

One must first learn what is the dharma, and then most importantly practice the dharma to see the results ourselves.

Regarding faith, also read http://www.buddhanet.net/cbp2_f5.htm

Excerpts:

...The Unification of Faith (s. sraddha) and Wisdom (s. prajna)

People are of varying natures and types and thus have different temperaments, worries, demands and passions. In general, one who has stronger feeling and sentiment is more likely to be compassionate and is more capable of developing strong faith in ones belief; while an intellectual person tends to have greater powers of discernment and lucid comprehension. The biased development of either faith or intellect results in protracted, cumulative, negative and harmful effects. For example, if an emotional person has strong faith without counter-balancing wisdom, he may sink into ignorance and superstition due to his fanatical faith. The lop-sided attitude of discriminating against rationality and wisdom is not acceptable in Buddhism. On the other hand, if we over-emphasize rationality and doubting everything, we will lose our faith and belief. This induces us to ignore moral values and to deny the existence of Universal Truth, saints and sages. One would thereby finally become anti-religious. Such perversity would lead us astray and prevent us from establishing truly moral behavior, eventually threatening the very fabric of our society! Thus, there is a saying in Buddhism,

"Faith without wisdom will develop ignorance;
wisdom without faith will develop a perverted view."

Buddhism advocates the unification of faith and wisdom. How can we bring faith and wisdom together? Is it possible to unify them? In the first place, we need to understand the Buddhist perspective of faith and wisdom. Faith is characterized by the sentiments of respect and of inspiration by an ideal. Faith is a common experience amongst the followers of any religion. Faith without intellectual comprehension and discrimination cannot be regarded as a rational faith. Faith in Buddhism is developed through contemplation and investigation so that the characteristics of truthfulness, righteousness, and efficacy of the ideal in which one develops faith, can be understood and revealed. This is the way a Buddhist develops faith and respect toward Sakyamuni Buddha. Sakyamuni is understood rationally to have existed in this world as a historical figure. He has supreme wisdom and great virtues and he has boundless compassion working towards the liberation of sentient beings. In Buddhism, faith is rooted in rational intellectual comprehension. As faith is strengthened and sharpened by the assessment of the intellect, it is further confirmed by the direct insight of wisdom. When understanding of the Buddha Dharma is developed further, faith becomes more intense. This faith will motivate us to elevate ourselves and ground our lives in true morality. It will enable our lives, guided by the ideals to which we have responded with faith. Faith is not merely an appreciation of the ideal but a desire to move towards it...

Isis SG

Once, the Buddha was traveling through the region of Kosala inhabited by a group of people known as the Kalamas. When he came to the town of Kesaputta he was approached by a number of Kesaputtians who asked him a question which is as relevant today as it was then. The essential question was this: 'When we are presented with an array of different views on the nature of truth, with teachers claiming that theirs is the one and only way, which are we to believe?

The Buddha's response is captured in this key passage: 'do not be satisfied with with hearsay or with tradition or with legendary lore or with what has come down in your scriptures or with conjecture or with logical inference or with weighing evidence or with liking for a view to pondering over it or with someone else's ability or with the thought "The monk is our teacher"'.

But this passage has to be seen in the context of the whole sutra.

The Buddha advises the Kesaputtians not to accept any teaching when they know that it is 'unwholesome, liable to censure, condemned by the wise, being adopted and put into effect they lead to harm and suffering'. The kalama sutra, therefore, is an important one in that it directs us not to follow any teaching blindly but to test it out against clearly defined criteria. For example, are its ideas wholesome, do they accord with the teachings of the wisest teachers, do they lead to one's own suffering or the suffering of others?

Kalama sutra

"Rely not on the teacher/person, but on the teaching. Rely not on the words of the teaching, but on the spirit of the words. Rely not on theory, but on experience.Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and
elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it."

The Buddha

mancha SG

The Buddha wants you to think, and not accept anything through emotions or blind faith.
No one taught the Buddha, He achieved enlightenment by His own effort. Meditating and purifying himself.
Therefore you too can attain enlightenment by yourself.
Learn and discover.
Investigate.
Practice righteousness.

cheskiz SG

Does that mean one who have never even heard of buhdda's teaching before can be enlightened and break through the 7th realm so long he have been through lots of things and learned from each and every experience and understand.

Well, i sort of understand and my answers have seem to be derived but just a few final questions..Does it mean that one should not force the teaching of buhdda or wat we would call blind faith. Since we have to go through things before enlightenment. I read the articles and i arrive to the conclusion that one who have never done any bad deeds but only surpress them can never gain enlightenment or real wisdom because only through actions can we learn the truth.

So, a person who did something wrong, face the after-effects of his actions and guilt that stick onto him, then only have he learnt something. Actually, my main answer i wanna get from this thread is.

Is it never wrong to sin, its part of learning journey but why do some buhddist followers actually have dramatic reaction to things like when they see people doing bad deed or so strict on refraining from eating beef or meat. If one refrain from eating meat for sake of the teachings?, then is it right. Dont be mistaken, i am just very curiouse about how things go around this culture. My dad is a buhddist and so are few of my relatives. I personally find it pretty useless. They follow the teachings so strictly, but they still sin without knowing it. So teachings are nothing but something u can get from actions but not buhdda's teaching. the teaching only serve as a guide.

Am i right?

Thank you for the guidance and some enlightenment but i am realy still in doubt of teachings of buhdda. I think it make sense but i felt my chain of thoughts tangle together, like so complicated..I read some of its saying and i realize that most dont match things i come across and some saying contradict one another when u give your deepest thoughts.

Buhdda say let nature take it course but why restrain pple from eating meat , the chicken is killed, nothing can be done other than eat it or u waste it.

cheskiz SG

I wonder did anyone suspect that the some teaching of buhdda is tainted after such long time.

I do, what we would call chicken in the past can be the duck we are refering.

An Eternal Now SG

You don't have to worry about that -- Buddha's discourses are recited after his passing in a council with the witness of 500 enlightened monks, and they are passed down by large groups reciting them frequently.

Most importantly, authenticity of the scriptures can be judged based on the 3 dharma seals -- if the doctrine preaches against the 3 dharma seals, then you may disregard that because the teachings contradicts Reality, contradicts the Buddhadharma.

The 3 Dharma Seals are: Impermanence, suffering, no-self.

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by cheskiz:
Does that mean one who have never even heard of buhdda's teaching before can be enlightened and break through the 7th realm so long he have been through lots of things and learned from each and every experience and understand.

What is the 7th realm you are talking about? I presume it is Nirvana. Nirvana is not a realm that we can perceive with our minds -- it is not bounded by, and transcends, time and space. It is not a realm of samsara, such as the 6 realms. It is supramundane, and yet nirvana and samsara is non-dual, what is needed is a quantum leap of perception (known as enlightenment). So strictly speaking, it is not exactly a realm, because realm implies distinctions and separations which does not apply to enlightenment. In reality there is only One True Dharmadhatu, there is only One Reality and the seeing of this (all manifestation as One Reality) is true Nirvana. True Nirvana is samsara rightly seen.

Secondly you asked it is possible to attain enlightenment through one's own experience and observations. Technically it is possible, an example is Shakyamuni Buddha himself but we must know that he has practised many previous lifetimes under previous Buddhas, and that it happens he attained fruition in his lifetime. It is extremely rare to meet a Buddha, or even a Pratyekabuddha (lower level than Buddha, awakened on his own to the truth of dependent origination, read below) For us, we have to learn diligently the teachings of Buddha, practise it and realise the truth from there.

As 1st Zen Patriarch Bodhidharma said in THE ZEN TEACHINGS OF BODHIDHARMA

Theres no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion.

If you dont find a teacher soon, youll live this life in vain. Its true, you have the buddha-nature. But the help of a teacher youll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teachers help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesnt need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless youre so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction youll understand.

People who dont understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who cant tell white from black." Falsely proclaiming the Buddha-Dharma, such persons in fact blaspheme the Buddha and subvert the Dharma. They preach as if they were bringing rain. But theirs is the preaching of devils not of Buddhas. Their teacher is the King of Devils and their disciples are the Devils minions. Deluded people who follow such instruction unwittingly sink deeper in the Sea of Birth and Death. Unless they see their nature, how can people call themselves Buddhas theyre liars who deceive others into entering the realm of devils. Unless they see their nature, their preaching of the Twelvefold Canon is nothing but the preaching of devils. Their allegiance is to Mara, not to the Buddha. Unable to distinguish white from black, how can they escape birth and death?

Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha; whoever doesnt is a mortal. But if you can find your buddha-nature apart from your mortal nature, where is it? Our mortal nature is our Buddha nature. Beyond this nature theres no Buddha. The Buddha is our nature. Theres no Buddha besides this nature. And theres no nature besides the Buddha.

...To find a Buddha, you have to see your nature." Whoever sees his nature is a Buddha. If you dont see your nature, invoking Buddhas, reciting sutras, making offerings, and keeping precepts are all useless. Invoking Buddhas results in good karma, reciting sutras results in a good memory; keeping precepts results in a good rebirth, and making offerings results in future blessings-but no buddha. If you dont understand by yourself, youll have to find a teacher to get to the bottom of life and death. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isnt a tea6er. Even if he can recite the Twelvefold Canon he cant escape the Wheel of Birth and Death. He suffers in the three realms without hope of release. Long ago, the monk Good Star 21 was able to recite the entire Canon. But he didnt escape the Wheel, because he didnt see his nature. If this was the case with Good Star, then people nowadays who recite a few sutras or shastras and think its the Dharma are fools. Unless you see your mind, reciting so much prose is useless.

To find a Buddha all you have to do is see your nature. Your nature is the Buddha. And the Buddha is the person whos free: free of plans, free of cares. If you dont see your nature and run around all day looking somewhere else, youll never find a buddha. The truth is theres nothing to find. But to reach such an understanding you need a teacher and you need to struggle to make yourself understand. Life and death are important. Dont suffer them in vain...

Those who attain enlightenment without prior hearing of the dharma in his lifetime are either Buddhas (the last Buddha was Shakyamuni Buddha, 2500 years ago in India) or pratyekabuddhas, and I do not think there are pratyekabuddhas in this time and age. We hardly ever see people attain enlightenment without the guidance of another enlightened being, honestly have you met someone who has attained ultimate enlightenment without being taught by other enlightened teachers or learned the teachings of Buddha?

HOWEVER, there are in fact many people even in modern times who attained enlightenment (experienced his true nature/Buddha Nature) under proper guidance by enlightened teachers, and are either post-bhumi Bodhisattvas or Arhats or those who attained various levels of the 4 stages and fruitions towards Arhatship. There are many such practitioners in the world right now, even in our forums.

I also wrote recently wrote this to Herzog_Zwei on the 3 kinds of enlightened beings:

First you have to know there are three bodhis, three types of enlightenment or fruitions. There is the Sravaka Bodhi, Pratyeka Bodhi, and Samyak Bodhi.

The very word shravaka, a shravaka arhat, means he is a 'hearer'. It means, he attained enlightenment through hearing, following, practising what a Sammasambuddha (full Buddha like Shakyamuni) has taught. He follows the teachings of such a Sammasam Buddha and attained Arhatship.

A solitary Buddha, or a Pratyekabuddha, attains enlightenment in his lifetime without learning from any Buddhas or any enlightened ones. He simply saw some signs, maybe some falling leaves, and attained an intuitive insight into the truth of dependent origination. Then, he attains enlightenment. A pratyekabuddha attains enlightenment during a period where there are no Buddhas. He has learned under previous Buddhas, but did not attain enlightenment in that lifetime, so continued to practise until one lifetime he attains Pratyekabuddhahood without the guide of any other enlightened beings. There are many pratyekabuddhas most of whom we probably did not know (since they are known as solitary), though some people say Lao Tzu could be an example of a pratyekabuddha (do note though: modern and religious Taoism has deviated much from the teachings of Lao Tzu). I will not debate on whether he is a pratyekabuddha here and is beyond the scope of this discussion.

Shakyamuni Buddha is an example of one who attained Anuttarasamyaksambodhi -- perfect, unexcelled enlightenment. He is a Buddha has not only attained Full Enlightenment, but also perfected the Paramitas, and obtained the ability, wisdom and skillful means to lead and guide lots and lots of sentient beings in masses towards enlightenment.

There can only be 1 Samyaksambodhi at any particular time in history, however, Shakyamuni Buddha was not the first Samyaksam Buddha to exist.. there are previous Samyaksam Buddhas before him, and also more Samyaksam Buddhas to come (the next one will be Maitreya Buddha). However, the previous Buddhas is beyond our written recorded history.

(to be continued in the next post)

An Eternal Now SG

So, a Pratyekabuddha and a Samyaksam Buddha attains enlightenment by himself without the aid of other enlightened teachers, in that particular lifetime. But this does not mean that the pratyekabuddha has not practised in previous lifetimes --- a pratyekabuddha has also practised in previous lifetimes, and also under previous Buddhas. Similar goes to the Samyaksam Buddha like Shakyamuni Buddha. Especially for such Buddhas, they have to practise as a Bodhisattva for many many lifetimes, perfecting the Paramitas, before finally being able to attain complete Buddhahood.

Originally posted by cheskiz:
Well, i sort of understand and my answers have seem to be derived but just a few final questions..Does it mean that one should not force the teaching of buhdda or wat we would call blind faith. Since we have to go through things before enlightenment. I read the articles and i arrive to the conclusion that one who have never done any bad deeds but only surpress them can never gain enlightenment or real wisdom because only through actions can we learn the truth.

So, a person who did something wrong, face the after-effects of his actions and guilt that stick onto him, then only have he learnt something. Actually, my main answer i wanna get from this thread is.

Is it never wrong to sin, its part of learning journey but why do some buhddist followers actually have dramatic reaction to things like when they see people doing bad deed or so strict on refraining from eating beef or meat. If one refrain from eating meat for sake of the teachings?, then is it right.

First of all, the practise of not eating beef is a Taoist and Hindu cultures. You are mistaking them with Buddhism.

It is true that in the Mahayana tradition of Buddhism, vegetarianism is encouraged (in contrast with Theravada Buddhism where it is less emphasized, and also the Bodhisattva path is less emphasized and the majority of practitioners in that tradition aspires for private liberation or Arhatship, not full and complete Buddhahood). It is however not meant to be forced down a person -- a practitioner of the Bodhisattva path who has great compassion will want to stop eating meat.

If you want to practise the Bodhisattva path, or the path of Mahayana, and emulate great compassions for all beings, then you should practise vegetarianism. As Buddha said, eating meat cuts off the root of compassion. If you cannot even stop eating meat, how can you develope the unconditional love and great compassion towards all beings, of a great Bodhisattva?

Anyway, I am from the Mahayana Buddhism tradition, and I am not yet a vegetarian. However, to lessen the effects of karma I try to eat only from the Five Clean Sources of Meat

Next you mentioned that is walking through a bad path necessary for our path to gain wisdom. Actually it is not necessary for everyone to experience all the negative consequences for wisdom to arise. If you have wisdom, you will not commit the faults in the first place.

That is like suggesting we should all start taking drugs and not just go by the laws, because only through taking drugs, we will succumb to addiction, and from addictions we will then learn how to rise above them and gain wisdom from it so that next time we will know how to avoid it.

This is actually valid, as in if you have not had the wisdom to know how to avoid it in the first place, then perhaps to succumb to addiction and then gain wisdom from it seems to be the only way you can 'learn'. But it does not apply to every single one, it need not be the case.

As the saying goes you do not need to try drugs to know it's harmful effect. Many of us already have the wisdom not to fall into such temptations. But for those who cannot succumb to their temptations, must be prepared to learn a heavy lesson.

The Buddha did not teach that in order to gain enlightenment, we must first commit evil and experience the effect. That is a way to learn but it is not necessary for all of us to go through that path.

The Buddha taught the 8 fold path towards Enlightenment through his own wisdom and experiences, and has lead countless people to enlightenment. This is path walked by countless practitioners before and will work for us if we walk the path and see for ourselves.

Also, you must also know that simply by avoiding evil and doing good does not mean you will gain enlightenment or liberation. I wrote before:

...What "circle" or "cycle of life and death" means in Buddhism, is that sentient beings are constantly being reborn in Samsara - the world of sufferings. They are always reborn again and again in the 6 realms of existence in samsara, according to their karma. Samsaric existence is full of pain and sufferings, even in the Human Existence we have to go through Birth, Ageing, Sickness and Death, and the eight distresses. But even if you are born in a royal family, or even in the celestial/heaven realms, samsaric pleasures are still disatisfactory because of its transiency/impermanence... and by attaching to these transient pleasures thinking they are real and truly existent, permanent, we create even more sufferings. We suffer as we do not know that all compounded phenomena are empty of inherent, permanent, separate existence... and that all arises out of conditions and are always transient. Therefore the Buddha taught that suffering and disatisfactoriness is a fundamental truth in life (i.e first noble truth), however he also teaches the cause of suffering and the solution (second, third, fourth noble truth), the path leading to the liberation from these sufferings.

Sentient beings cannot become liberated from samsara because they are tied down by the bondage of their ignorance and karmic propensities... due to an illusion of duality (means subject-object separation) or a false sense of self, sentient beings are constantly grasping on things and craving for samsaric pleasures and existence, thus undergoing never ending suffering. Not only are we being reborn lifetime are lifetime, we are constantly reborn moment after moment even in this very life. This is because of our illusion and attachment to our 'self' and our sentient thoughts (our identification and attachment to thoughts and things caused by ignorance), and the process of identification with a 'self' is continued without an ending until we attain insights and enlightenment. To gain these insights we have to practise the eightfold path in our lives.

So therefore in Buddhism, Buddha showed us the path leading to the complete ending of all sufferings, finding the abiding purity and bliss of Nirvana, to become liberated from the cycle of rebirth in Samsara. Buddha taught that the Buddhas of past and future all teach Buddhism as "avoid all evil, doing all good, and purifying the mind". Most religions only teach "avoid all evil and doing all good", but only Buddhism teaches about liberation and the purification of the mind. The problem with just "avoiding all evil and doing all good" is that as a result we accumulate a lot of good karma and avoid creating bad karma, meaning we can be reborn in the higher realms or even the celestial realms like the heavens, however we still cannot attain nirvana, we cannot be liberated from the cycle of samsara.. and our enjoyment in these higher realms are also limited and transient. Similarly as described just now even if our lives are very good, there is still bound to be unsatisfactoriness and sufferings.. if we cannot be liberated moment to moment. Therefore when we practise Buddhism, also we practise purification of the mind... through mindfulness we become aware of and disidentify from all our sentient thoughts, our habitual tendencies of the mind, the afflictive emotions and so on due to identification with a false sense of self, and the identification is also known as the false 'ego'. Our Buddha Nature is like a clear mirror, our pure awareness, which unfortunately is obscured from us because of a layer of dust, or mental defilements. Through Buddhism we clean the mirror of its defilements to reveal the clear bright mirror underneath. Therefore through practising Buddhism we gain insights into the nature of reality, the nature of our minds, our Buddha Nature, and through awakening from our delusions we find the nirvanic bliss of clarity and liberation from all sufferings in our lives...

An Eternal Now SG

(sgForums post duplication error)

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by cheskiz:
Dont be mistaken, i am just very curiouse about how things go around this culture. My dad is a buhddist and so are few of my relatives. I personally find it pretty useless. They follow the teachings so strictly, but they still sin without knowing it. So teachings are nothing but something u can get from actions but not buhdda's teaching. the teaching only serve as a guide.

First of all are they real Buddhists in the first place who have taken refuge in the three treasures: Buddha, Dharma, Sangha? Many people claim to be Buddhist, but actually they are not but more like followers of folk cultures which is mixture of folk beliefs and worship but not necessary linked to Buddhism.

Next, if they practice the teachings then they should not be 'sinning', which actually isn't a really appropriate word to use in Buddhism. If their practise is in accord with the dharma, there should not be such things, but please be reminded that nobody is perfect (except a fully enlightened person) and also not every person really practices the dharma all the time. There are many people who knows the theory but does not practise it.

Am i right?

Thank you for the guidance and some enlightenment but i am realy still in doubt of teachings of buhdda. I think it make sense but i felt my chain of thoughts tangle together, like so complicated..I read some of its saying and i realize that most dont match things i come across and some saying contradict one another when u give your deepest thoughts.

You're welcomed. I am pretty sure that most or all of your doubts stems from misunderstandings of the Buddha's teachings, but it is OK and actually great that you wish to learn and seek to understand more, so do keep up your attitude and learn more about the dharma, eventually you will understand it better.

If there are any doubts in the dharma, please feel free to ask in this forum and we will do our best to answer your queries.

Perhaps you can start by telling us what are the things that "dont match things i come across and some saying contradict one another when u give your deepest thoughts"

Buhdda say let nature take it course but why restrain pple from eating meat , the chicken is killed, nothing can be done other than eat it or u waste it.

Buddha never said 'let nature take its course' in that manner. To refrain from eating meat is what we can do to protect the animal's life. Indirect consuming is just as good as killing them, because when there is demand there is supply. This is simple common sense, and this is also written in the Bodhisattva precepts.