ok just wondering... about the Uposatha Observance days

last SG · 2007-05-05T00:25:30+00:00

Yes you need to practise. Which means both sitting meditation and spontaneous meditation on the go. Regarding meditation... sometimes I'm a little busy and d...

An Eternal Now SG

Actually can't exactly blame everything on 'no yuan' as well... sometimes we let our yuan slip away. My dharma teacher reminded me indirectly about the importance of time management and poor time management and being late as being one example of our bad habits when I was late for one of their sessions... She said to the whole group but I know was directed to me Laughing Actually I appreciate her frankness Mr. Green

By the way why you feel like you are putting too much effort? BTW if you think you have strong karma... which is a possibility... you can try some repentance. My teacher did mention about this point as well.. he said those with high 'geng qi' when listening to the dharma he taught, would instantaneously transcend.. transcend samsara. In fact the essence of the dharma he was teaching was about 'instantaneous transcendence' and was only taught in the past to people of higher capacity (but conditions have changed and in order to let the true dharma survive we have no choice but to pass down to the masses) But most of us, our karmic obscurations has blocked us from true knowing... and our habitual energies are too strong. As such we should try repentance... He also mentioned in the past those who seek this direct dharma had to practise repentance, 108 times everyday (that would be more than 45 minutes everyday of repeating the repentance verses and prostrations). On the other hand... whatever karmic obscurations or whatever you think you have... don't take them too seriously. As my teacher said as well, karma is just karma, it can only be a 'karmic obscuration' when you let it obscure you.

Isis SG

mm effort to be more mindful of the right, left actions of my foot. Cos i really really don't want to be a sotong for the rest of my life. Laughing

mm there is alot of factors which i don't wish to discuss in open forum.

yes letting the yuan slip past.. think it has something to do with my current lifestyle and focus.... but then today i was really tired..

Isis SG

ok.... it is tuff to break habits. I had repented, yesterday though not 108 times but i still lose my patience and get angry today. Mmm from what i know meditation helps too. Just read on the practise of khanti now.... heh not easy i think.... but i really do agreed repentance works.

thx for the sharing. I will continue to try. : )

An Eternal Now SG

Icic...

Regarding effort and mindfulness... Thusness and us had some discussion about this as well... the conversation is v long and I only copy a small part here..

(10:48 PM) Thusness: now...not to understand estimate all words we use
(10:48 PM) Thusness: when we say 'sound', 'taste'...
(10:48 PM) Thusness: immediately these words and symbols carry meanings
(10:49 PM) Thusness: they chain and link
(10:49 PM) Thusness: they have imprints
(10:49 PM) Thusness: therefore insight meditation is taught
(10:49 PM) ~Ukulele~:
(10:49 PM) Thusness: many underestimated the power of these 'bonds'
(10:49 PM) Thusness: prevent one from seeing...
(10:49 PM) Thusness: there is no true seeing...
(10:49 PM) Me: icic..
(10:50 PM) Thusness: what are sensations?
(10:50 PM) Thusness: it is a word that carries certain meaning
(10:50 PM) Thusness: when we say 'taste' is a form of sensation...
(10:51 PM) Thusness: immediately we are bonded though we think we know what we are talking about.
(10:51 PM) Thusness: we only think...
(10:51 PM) Thusness: we do not know...
(10:51 PM) Thusness: we do not know a lot of things
(10:51 PM) Thusness: when we practice, we are not practicing to attain the ultimate
(10:51 PM) Thusness: there is nothing to attain
(10:52 PM) Thusness: we only attempt to create conditions to experience certain aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:52 PM) Thusness: when we put attention into mindfulness, into 'bare' attention
(10:53 PM) Thusness: 'seeing' bare, we actually give up other aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:53 PM) Thusness: that is the effortless spontaneity
(10:53 PM) Thusness: so when someone teach mindfulness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he said put in effort to be bare in attention....he is not wrong
(10:54 PM) Thusness: when some one said no no no, gentle effort in being mindfulness and be bare in attention
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he is also not wrong
(10:55 PM) Thusness: for all these paths are truly pathless
(10:55 PM) Thusness: one that think he knows what is pathless doesn't really know.
(10:55 PM) Thusness: he thinks effortless is doing nothing, laze around
(10:55 PM) Thusness: and when he act, he thought that is effort
(10:55 PM) ~Ukulele~:
(10:56 PM) Thusness: it is a misunderstanding of a dualistic mind.
(10:56 PM) Thusness: this is another tricky part of awareness
(10:56 PM) Thusness: its all pervadingness
(10:57 PM) Thusness: say that after u understand the 'Self' as everything, why need meditation
(10:57 PM) Thusness: and dogen said, must meditate, even buddha meditate
(10:58 PM) Thusness: and said thought not necessary, still meditate
(10:58 PM) Thusness: keekekeke
(10:58 PM) Thusness: then said practice and enligthenment is one
(10:58 PM) Thusness: that is pathless
(10:58 PM) ~Ukulele~:
(10:58 PM) Thusness: neither do we do away with forms nor not forms
(10:59 PM) Thusness: this is another tricky part

-------------------------

But in the case if you feel you are 'putting too much effort', I would say that is a problem of focusing too hard... bare attention isn't just a matter of focusing or concentrating... in a way it is effortless awareness. Why effortless? Does it take effort to hear or see what is happening around you? Awareness is ever-present no matter what... and it takes place effortlessly and spontaneously. It takes no effort to hear the keyboard sound as I'm typing. It takes no effort to see the words that are appearing on the screen. Insight meditation or any form of "practising" naked awareness is pointing to this. As Thusness says, "clarity must be effortless and spontaneous...and that has to do with dissolving the sense of self."

Enlightenment, True Nature, True Self, Wholeness, the Unconditioned Absolute - whatever words have been given to what is without words, unthinkable, unknowable, ungraspable - is not the effect of a cause. It is luminously present and timeless, overlooked by the roving intellect that is trying to grasp it, and obscured by the bodymind's constantly shifting moods, desires, and fears. Moment-to-moment meditation is clearly coming upon this roving and shifting, resisting and fearing mind and the urge to do something about it!... Meditation that is free and effortless, without goal, without expectation, is an expression of Pure Being that has nowhere to go, nothing to get.

There is no need for awareness to turn anywhere. It's here! Everything is here in awareness! When there is a waking up from fantasy, there is no one who dos it. Awareness and the sound of a plane are here with no one in the middle trying to "do" them or bring them together. They are here together! The only thing that keeps things (and people) apart is the "me"-circuit with its separative thinking. When that is quiet, divisions do not exist.

~ The Silent Question: Meditating in the Stillness of Not-Knowing by Toni Packer

But then again is effort needed? In another sense, yes.. in terms of the 7 factors of enlightenment, it is called 'energy'.

http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe14.html - Mindfulness in Plain English

...Concentration and mindfulness are distinctly different functions. They each have their role to play in meditation, and the relationship between them is definite and delicate. Concentration is often called one-pointedness of mind. It consists of forcing the mind to remain on one static point. Please note the word FORCE....

...Concentration is pretty much a forced type of activity. It can be developed by force, by sheer unremitting willpower. And once developed, it retains some of that forced flavor. Mindfulness, on the other hand, is a delicate function leading to refined sensibilities. These two are partners in the job of meditation. Mindfulness is the sensitive one. He notices things. Concentration provides the power. He keeps the attention pinned down to one item. Ideally, mindfulness is in this relationship. Mindfulness picks the objects of attention, and notices when the attention has gone astray. Concentration does the actual work of holding the attention steady on that chosen object. If either of these partners is weak, your meditation goes astray....

...You can't develop mindfulness by force. Active teeth gritting willpower won't do you any good at all. As a matter of fact, it will hinder progress. Mindfulness cannot be cultivated by struggle. It grows by realizing, by letting go, by just settling down in the moment and letting yourself get comfortable with whatever you are experiencing. This does not mean that mindfulness happens all by itself. Far from it. Energy is required. Effort is required. But this effort is different from force. Mindfulness is cultivated by a gentle effort, by effortless effort. The meditator cultivates mindfulness by constantly reminding himself in a gentle way to maintain his awareness of whatever is happening right now. Persistence and a light touch are the secrets. Mindfulness is cultivated by constantly pulling oneself back to a state of awareness, gently, gently, gently...

So I think you are putting too much 'FORCE' in concentrating on a static point and blocking out any 'extras'... so some balancing may be needed..

Isis SG

hanor i realise i put too much force...

ehh then how come the jhana state... is supposedly be of blissful state?
If forced, then it will be.... ?? jus wondering...

bohiruci SG

Whether it is jhanic state or not , it still depends on individual ,doesnt mean meditation can enter samadhi ,and chanting cant

I also can enter samadhi ,without forcing on pheonomenon that come

the underlying issue is to "let go "

Cool

Thusness SG

Some Comments:

I think what your master did is to provide a path towards experiencing the nakedness of awareness. It is to allow one to have a first glimpse of what awareness is like, i.e, to have a direct experience of awareness as luminous clarity. Here due to our habitual propensities, awareness is most likely experienced like a mirror reflecting phenomenon. It is unlikely that the non-dual nature will be understood.

It will not be obvious that when we talk about awareness, it has to be no-self, that all along, awareness has never been dual. This is its nature. This understanding comes only when the teaching of Dharma has sunk sufficiently deep to create the condition for the arising of this insight or when we have go through hell lot of effort to keep this nakedness until we realized that there is no way to keep this nakedness unless there is no-self. I must say that it is a process of trail and error and diligent practice. Through this process, there is a gradual understanding of the importance of being effortless to have the sustain clarity. The process continues till the Ah Ha sort of insight dawn upon us, that truly this has along been the way, that awareness has always been non-dual, there is no-self from start, it is truly a seal.

It should not be a straight jump into the non-dual aspect and the direct experience of 'Form is Emptiness and Emptiness is Form'. I think to for explanatory purposes, the phases, causes and conditions must be expounded more clearly.

Thusness SG

The msn conversation is a topic about efforting leading effortless realisation. Why was not mentioned so that we would not just brush through conversations making it meaningless unless we sincerely want to understand how consciousness works.

Why efforting is necessary towards understanding the effortless?
This is just the way it is when the mind is in a dualistic mode and the reason lies in propensities, another function of consciousness, it creates imprints naturally. A teaching that does not include this aspect is not knowing enough of how consciousness works. Effort always creates imprints unless spontaneity of our nature is experienced due to the dissolution of self. Smile

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Although the world may appear dualistic,

In reality it is all manifestation of the One Awareness.

Even though in essence Awareness never loses its non-dual nature,

We are lost in dualism by the made-belief of our perceptual bond.

What we called understanding, thinking and analysis,

Is nothing more than the busy business of fitting known facts into a dualistic framework.

How we came to see the world as dualistic is astonishing,

It is all due to the amazing reaction of consciousness to symbols.

Not to underestimate the incessant function of consciousness to form imprints upon itself,

This is the amazing power that makes illusions appear real.

It is a magical spell that cannot be broken easily.

-- Thusness
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Place equal importance to this function of consciousness. Smile

An Eternal Now SG

Icic.. Smile

An Eternal Now SG

Erm.. so are you saying we need to employ effort to create some sort of imprints? What imprints?

An Eternal Now SG

This is because when the jhana factors arise it becomes very very easy and seemingly effortless to become absorbed with that sort of jhanic factors like ruptures, etc. That is the whole point of jhana. When you become absorbed in these jhanic factors then there is stability in that absorption. But it is not forced... there is no difficulty at all in maintaining the state of jhana because of the factors. My first impression of these experiences from my past experience is like I am being absorbed into a different state of consciousness... and in a way you can say so..

Thusness SG

No. I am saying we are always creating imprints as long as we are dualistic. This means 'efforting', 'doing' is the way it is as long as there is 'self'. 'Efforting' is like placing anything on a patch of grass that causes a figure being impressed on it. There is no 'why', this is how it is. However don't misinterpreted non-doing as "idling doing nothing", it has to do with the dissolution of 'Self/self' and spontaneity.

An Eternal Now SG

I see... so if I'm right here, spontaneity is completely beyond 'reach' of those without insights into non duality right?

Next just to clarify some points of the previous MSN discussion..

(10:51 PM) Thusness: when we practice, we are not practicing to attain the ultimate
(10:51 PM) Thusness: there is nothing to attain
(10:52 PM) Thusness: we only attempt to create conditions to experience certain aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:52 PM) Thusness: when we put attention into mindfulness, into 'bare' attention
(10:53 PM) Thusness: 'seeing' bare, we actually give up other aspect of our pristine awareness
(10:53 PM) Thusness: that is the effortless spontaneity
(10:53 PM) Thusness: so when someone teach mindfulness
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he said put in effort to be bare in attention....he is not wrong
(10:54 PM) Thusness: when some one said no no no, gentle effort in being mindfulness and be bare in attention
(10:54 PM) Thusness: he is also not wrong
(10:55 PM) Thusness: for all these paths are truly pathless
(10:55 PM) Thusness: one that think he knows what is pathless doesn't really know.

So bare attention leads to? As you said previously the first glimpse of pristine awareness? Then what about other aspects like you said... what other aspects? There are other forms of practice?

Thusness SG

Other aspects includes the effortless spontaneity as mentioned above. Non-locality is another but at present I do not want to go into it.

An Eternal Now SG

Ok... but there is no way to 'practise' to 'build the conditions' for spontaneity right? (since spontaneity is 'effortless') Which comes back to the question you havent answered me Wink "so if I'm right here, spontaneity is completely beyond 'reach' of those without insights into non duality right?"

Thusness SG

Gosh...this comes to another one of our discussions, oneness, paradox and polarity. Paradox makes something stands as opposite whereas polarity complement each other. Sometimes giving up itself entirely for the other pole to arise is also Oneness.

An Eternal Now SG

Oh haha.. yea realised it's the old discussions Laughing

Isis SG

i should give up clinging to this sense of self and having no expectation to achieve something and just meditate.. mm am i right?[/quote]

An Eternal Now SG

Fully agreed... especially the part 'having no expectation to achieve something' -- this applies to every single Buddhist practise Smile Just practise and don't have a second thought or expect something.. Thusness also mentioned about this before.

Thusness SG

Hi Isis,

You can treat non-duality as a form of experience without an object and subject split. Experience of non-duality results in bliss or jhanic states. We may enter non-dual mainly through:

1. Concentration
Here object and subject fused into one through the sustain power of concentration. One enters into a state of absorption and samadhi. This is the way of efforting that has an entry and exit point. Self is temporary suspended by forget it through absorption.

2. Wisdom
This is the experience of non-duality through realization and insight. In this case, non-duality is experienced as our nature. It is always so. This is the effortless and spontaneous way. There is no entry and exit at all. All dualism are but ignorance of our non-dual nature. Self is realized as an illusion. There is no self apart from the manifestation.

In both cases, non-duality is all about the dissolution of self/Self. The sense of self is caused either by:

1. The illusionary view of an agent. The view of I or
2. Attachment to objectives and possession, that is, objective action. The view of mine.

What is said is more on the second aspect but realisation that there is no agent is equally important. Smile

« Previous Page Next Page »