Originally posted by _wanderer_:
Originally posted by An Eternal Now:
So far I am not aware of any deviant people in our forum Also
regarding attainments, it is fine to reveal one's attainment
depending on conditions. In fact Arhats like Dharma Dan
(http://www.inter activebuddha.com/ about.shtml) openly announced
his attainments of Arhatship and Jhanas... Buddha also announced
his attainment of Buddhahood, as well as the top disciples like
Shariputra and Mogallana -- the early Arhats all have the tradition
of announcing their attainments. So announcing attainment is fine
as long as it is not misleading, and truly enlightened people do
not boast (I've never seen anyone boasting in this forum of their
attainment so that's a good sign). However, if announcing
attainment can help others so that others may know who they can
learn from, that's not necessarily bad. Just that in modern times,
attaining enlightenment is not something people would often
discuss, one of the reason is because of taboos.. however that was
not the case in early Buddhism.
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Hmm I think AEN you're introducing lay people who have had some
meditative experiences or realizations, with the kind motivation of
hoping to point people towards the 'right direction'. In this case,
I would have some reservations... and I'll explain my concerns a
little more.
When you say that someone is Enlightened, we don't know what you
mean by Enlightenment. You may say that there are different degrees
of Enlightenment, but do you know what level of Enlightenment do
these people have? Does it mean these people have become Buddhas/
Bodhisattvas (of which bhumi?)/
Let me define it... as having entered the Noble Path. That means
either Sotapanna at least, or 1st Bhumi Bodhisattva.
Pratyekabuddhas/ Arhats/ Arhat-to-be/ or practitioners with some
stable meditative experiences? No matter which level of
Enlightenment you are referring to, when you say you know some
people are Enlightened, the first impression most people get are
that these people are some sort like the Buddha, if not like the
Buddha, then at least some sort like Bodhisattvas or Arhats.
Yes I did clarify in PM..
The question is, how do you know?
The problem is when we ourselves are unenlightened, we can't really
do the job of knowing who's enlightened and who's not. For you to
be able to truly ascertain somebody's level of attainment, you need
to be at least at that level, if not higher than that. Only a 10th
Bhumi Bodhisattva can authenticate that another fellow being is
either a 9th or 10th Bhumi Bodhisattva.
I understand. Someone did authenticate some other guy and told
me 
So I roughly know lah... in terms of
4 stage/bhumis.
The person himself/herself proclaiming that he/she has certain
attainments may or may not be correct. Even when we read Dharma
texts and then we try to see if this so-and-so speaks like what the
Dharma text described - therefore this person must be enlightened
--> this doesn't work either; because Enlightenment cannot be
quantified into a set of checklists.
In your example above about the announcement of attainment,
remember it's Buddha who said so-and-so has become an Arahant, not
any fellow practicing unenlightened being making the
announcement.
When we are stil unenlightened, it is good not to quickly jumping
to conclusion and telling others with utmost confidence that
so-and-so is enlightened.
Because:
(1) You can never be sure unless you yourself have become
enlightened.
(2) If that so-called enlightened person is not truly enlightened,
you are giving other people the wrong impression &
understanding of what enlightenment is.
(3) If that so-called enlightened person still have even 0.00001%
of ego, then your constant proclamation that they are already
enlightened may just give them more burden of ego to unload...thus
really delaying them from true accomplishment.
Even Buddha and his enlightened disciples seldom go around telling
people about their attainments, for the very reason because deluded
beings like us tend to grasp to such things as enlightenment,
accomplishment etc.... but the Dharma path is really a journey without
goal. You do not get more enlightened by hearing
that someone is enlightened. You get more enlightened by hearing
the Dharma, engaging in the practice and realizing the true essence
of Prajnaparamita.
First of all.. my understanding is not based on unfounded claims
or my own judgements.. meaning there are authentications of their
understandings, even from teacher of recognised lineages. You can
PM me for more information.
Secondly.. I agree one shouldn't focus so much on accomplishment.
However the very least we must say is this: There are people
enlightened (even today and not the ancient past), there are those
you can learn from, and most definitely you can get enlightened.
It's not something only a chosen few can achieve. If one have at
least some confidence in this, then they will really want to
practise the dharma. Truly the dharma is a pathless path, but what
concerns most beginners is "does this path really work?"
Even till today, it is a common advice not to talk about
spiritual attainment, because our tendency is to grasp to it.
Of course to know that some people have certain attainments after
embarking on the Dharma path can be very faith-inspiring. I think
that's fine and it's sufficient to rejoice wholeheartedly. But we
should refrain from getting overly excited about it or go around
telling people so and so is enlightened, due to the above reasons I
stated. It can attract obstacles to the Dharma path.
Agreed. Actually I don't really 'go around telling everyone',
only rarely on some conditions like owl's. I also won't just tell
everyone (i.e someone who doesnt like buddhism).
