what if

last SG · 2007-01-05T20:46:40+00:00

Please read the entire Diamond Sutra "Why is this so? If, Subhuti, a bodhisattva holds on to the idea that a self, a person, a living being, or a life span e...

Eric Cartman SG

And why are you comparing me to buddha? I’m not saying I’m going to be buddha this life.

An Eternal Now SG

First jhana does not mean you can concentrate on an object. Please read what Buddha said about first jhana.

An Eternal Now SG

Comparing with stage 5 and 6 or even any stages.

Eric Cartman SG

I looked up wiki and it says The five hindrances have completely disappeared and intense unified bliss remains. Only the subtlest of mental movement remains - perceiveable in its absence by those who have entered the second Jhāna. The ability to form unwholesome intentions cease.

Yeah thats what I got because I looked at all the lines on my palm all at once, then concentrated and other things ceased before I could see something coming out of my hand

Eric Cartman SG

Does luminousity mean brightness or what.

An Eternal Now SG

Erm, what you experienced doesn't sound like what wiki said at all. Sounds like hallucination of psychiatric illness Mr. Green

I'm going to quote what Buddha said about the first jhana:

[First jhana]

"There is the case where a monk quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...

During first jhana, there is withdrawal from sensual attachment, one pointedness absorption, and very strong bodily rupture. The bliss spreads throughout body. (remember I mentioned my experience of intense bliss spreading throughout the body in wave-like movement?) The whole body is in a state of bliss. Physical rupture is the strong character in First Jhana, and in higher jhana physical rupture turns more to mental rupture, then to equanimity, etc. A different form of bliss.

So don't anyhow say you attain this or that jhana.

An Eternal Now SG

No, it means our pure awareness. When visualised, this awareness seems to be 'bright', 'luminous'. That's why we hear about things like clear-light nature, or 'jue zhao guang ming'.

Eric Cartman SG

And does rupture mean burst?
All I knew was that I was very clever when I was little.

Eric Cartman SG

What happens if you dont visualize it?

An Eternal Now SG

Wah lao... even child prodigies aren't very rare lah. I'm sure you know and obviously, enlightenment has little to do with whether you are clever.

Some very stupid people can become enlightened as well. There was a disciple of Buddha who is very stupid. He couldn't understand the teachings and cannot even memorise a simple dharma verse to contemplate on. Then the Buddha taught him to keep chanting "broom" (something like that), he attained Arhatship.

An Eternal Now SG

Not about what happens. Just that when expressed verbally, luminous is an appropriate description.

An Eternal Now SG

Anyway just a note to confused readers: jhana stages (samatha) that are discussed above are not stages of enlightenment.

Eric Cartman SG

sensual attachment - Yes I had no sensual attachment when I was little
One pointed absorption - yup I was absorbed in my palm.
Bliss thuout body - I think I had that too.

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by Eric Cartman:

sensual attachment - Yes I had no sensual attachment when I was little

You sure? Any slightest attachment to the 5 sense objects is called sensual attachment. Maybe you were attached, but you were not aware, or you have forgotten after some time.

One pointed absorption - yup I was absorbed in my palm.

A few moments of concentration is not the same as attaining absorption.

Bliss thuout body - I think I had that too.[/b]

If 'you think' only then it cannot be. The rupture is so intense that it will leave you without doubt that you did experience bodily rupture. It might just be the most amazing experience you ever had in your life if you are a beginner in meditation.

Eric Cartman SG

what the hell is body rupture??

An Eternal Now SG

Rupture = piti:

Five kinds of delightful satisfaction piti:

1. The thrill of joy and delightful satisfaction of low intensity which makes the flesh tingle or creep:khuddaka piti;
2. Instantaneous joy like a flash of lightning (of delightful satisfaction): khanika piti;
3. A surge of delightful satisfaction or flood of joy like surf breaking on the shore; okkantika piti;
4. Delightful satisfaction which transports and enables one to float in the air like a wisp of cotton, ubbega piti; and
5. Intense delightful satisfaction which suffuses the whole body for a long time, or like a flood overflowing small tanks and ponds: pharana piti.

A note: I believe jhana ruptures have to do with 3~5 (i think particularly 5) sort of rupture, because ruptures 1~2 can be experienced as only fleeting and short moments.

An Eternal Now SG

Dharma Dan said something similar which proves that stupid people can be enlightened as well:

...That night the abbot played a tape of a man describing the stages of insight. It blew my mind, as he described exactly what I had gone through in the previous 13 days. I could clearly see how the stages he was describing had unfolded, exactly where I was and what I had to do. I was also astounded that the path could be so reproducible and straightforward, that I could just follow moronically simple instructions and have it all happen. Those who want to get lost in the reaction, No, it isnt so simple. Awakening is a great and intractable mystery! You are lying! It mustnt be so! should take a few moments to seriously question exactly how this disempowering and inaccurate view helps them feel good about themselves. They should then take a few moments to find another, more empowering view that helps them feel good about themselves, step up to the plate, and hit a home run...

~ Dharma Dan

Eric Cartman SG

oh well what if I was in a rupture all the time without even having to do formal meditation

Eric Cartman SG

Dharma Dan said something similar which proves that stupid people can be enlightened as well:

That proves that me or other people could very well have been enlightened without all these.

Would you call a person with awareness clever?

An Eternal Now SG

That is impossible. Be honest with yourself and others. I believe outside jhanas you can experience rupture 1~2, but not 3~5. Rupture 1~2 is only fleeting ruptures, cannot be jhana/absorption.

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