can enlightened people speak in totally foreign languages?

Cenarious SG

languages they have never heard of before but exists, like spanish or german for a singaporean who doesnt know the language, since they are not dependent on conditions.

An Eternal Now SG

Of course not! They still need translators to get their message across or understand what the other is saying. Where did you get the idea that they are not dependant on conditions? Of course, the enlightened state is not dependant on language or conditions at all. But if you want to speak the language you have to learn it what... isn't that common sense? Enlightened people still have to learn concepts in the mundane world, whether for work etc.

But a perfect Buddha is different because he is omniscient and can speak in any language and even to animals.

Cenarious SG

u said so in the other topic.

so if changes occur in the timeless Now, won't an enlightened person be able to speak a foreign language right now if he starts learning it 10 years later?

An Eternal Now SG

If all there ever is is NOW, how can one starts learning 10 years later? Even after the clock and calendar changed to "year 2016", it still is NOW. There never was time, there only is NOW. Time is merely clock, measurement, analysis, comparison, relativity... etc. So sum it up, Krishnamurti says "Time is Thought".

I told you, the timeless Now is not a Now in relation to past and future. Past, future, now, never existed. The timeless Now is eternal Now, beginningless and endless.

Therefore to say you were born a particular year ago is ultimately illusory. You were never born and will never die.

alexkusu SG

bonjour monsieur, parle vous francais? Very Happy

Cenarious SG

Cause and effect, just like birth and death, lose their significance at the Enlightened level because at the level of basic nature there is no one to receive the effect of Karma, whether it is good or bad. Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable. All that the Enlightened one does, says, or thinks is through free will, a manifestation of basic nature, and not the effect of past Karma.

Possibly but not conclusively. I do not deny that there are just certain aspects of consciousness that require us to work undisturbed deligently. Sufficient level of clarity is required to serve as the condition and momentum for deeper level of insight to take place. For this, one might have to leave behind normal everyday life and live in solitude for a period of time. But in the final stage, one's action is totally indeterminable. Smile

An Eternal Now SG

Even when he does not know, the 'dont know' is also manifestation of basic nature. Whatever manifests is manifesting from his basic nature. He never resists what is.

It doesn't mean resigning to fate. If he signs up for some language course, the action also arises spontaneously out of one's basic nature spontaneously. There is no resistance nor seeking/craving.

Cenarious SG

so an enlightened person cannot really be called free of karma because learning a language is a cause and knowing how to speak the language is the effect

An Eternal Now SG

Of course he, as a person, still will have to "suffer" his karma la! But to be more precise, there is no "sufferer", nor suffering. Only pain. Therefore karma doesn't matter to him.

Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable.

It only means that karma doesn't apply to him because he is not identified with anything the karma manifests.

Cenarious SG

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Of course he, as a person, still will have to "suffer" his karma la! But to be more precise, there is no "sufferer", nor suffering. Only pain. Therefore karma doesn't matter to him.

[b]Therefore, at the extreme, when one is Enlightened, the law of Karma is not applicable.

It only means that karma doesn't apply to him because he is not identified with anything the karma manifests.[/b]

what diff is that from being an idiot? omg my world is shattered

An Eternal Now SG

How has that got to do with being an idiot?

Idiot means no intelligence. Enlightened persons may be very intelligent what.

Cenarious SG

an idiot suffers but doesnt know what is going on

An Eternal Now SG

An enlightened one doesn't suffer, but he knows what is going on.

Step 2 = know what is going on.

Step 3 and Step 4 = suffering.

Because suffering only occurs when there is someone, a 'self', suffering. Someone reacting against what is. Resisting/grasping/seeking.

argh how do i let go of concepts

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Wow.. what a wonderful post on Fear Anyway was just wondering... during the time where conditions of your dream manifests, how would you know that you are meditating and opening your mouth? Does the 5 sense consciousnesses continue to function?

Anyway I was reminded of something Teacher Chen mentioned when reading your post... he taught that our everyday reactions to the external world can be summarised in four steps.

[b]1) I see a mass of things

Because the 'thing' you saw is still distant away and you cannot see clearly, you also do not know that you are looking at. There is just the Sight, and it is the functioning of our Buddha Nature, Pristine Awareness. There is no mental reactions whatsoever (yet), nor labeling.

2) "Wah, Money!"

When we got closer to the object at the distant, we instantly recognised what it is - money. The reason why we recognised it as money is because we have seen and used the money before and many times, the currency is also familiar to us, we have planted the 'seed' of 'money' in our 8th consciousness and therefore, when the conditions are present, we spontaneously recognised it as "money".

3) "I came first, this is mine"

Due to our ignorance and habitual defilements, we 'personalise' the situation by making a stance that the money belongs to me, I came first, etc. Also known as 7th consciousness. There starts to be grasping and seeking, desire and lust.

4) Sin committed, resulting in either landing up in jail or rebirth in hell

You took away the money you are not supposed to take away and share with those around you, thereby committing a very heavy karma. The money could be used to save other people's life or for other important reasons, but somehow out of ignorance you cannot resist the temptations, and for that you will suffer karmic effects by ending up with a jail term and a horrible afterlife.

----------

So moral of the story is... do not wait until Step 4, it is too late. When 'Step 2' happens, we must instantly recognise it with mindfulness, and the thought is self-liberated. Otherwise we will go on seeking and grasping, leading to step 3, and step 4. Step 2 is the Cause/Seed, and Step 4 is the Effect. Step 1 is merely the functioning of our pristine awareness, buddha nature.[/b]

An Eternal Now SG

By Thusness, http://now-for-you.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1296&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15

With this insight, the momentum of the pattern continues but without re-enforement, rises and falls in its own accord (otherwise there is constant re-enforcement) until karmic pattern ends. On the other hand, the ruling mode of 'knowing' which is dualistic is replaced by 'beingness' and Presence continues its stream of Nowness.

Amadeus =Jonls, in our forum.

Cenarious SG

idiots just cry when they feel pain i doubt they will go around asking WHY WHY ME WHY

what diff is that from "there is pain but no one to be painful"?

An Eternal Now SG

Idiots are too unintelligent to ask this.

Enlightened people are intelligent enough to ask this but they do not need to because they never suffer and there never was a 'me', so why would he ask 'why me'

Cenarious SG

so if they dont have the intelligence to ask this it means they dont have the concept of a self

An Eternal Now SG

They have a concept of the self. But they are too stupid to ask 'why me'.

Even if lets say a baby... his concept of self is more subtle than us, his identity is 'one with the physical world' but nevertheless very egocentric. He thinks that everyone will understand him, in a way. Because if he is such and such, others is such and such. His 'one with the physical world' is not the enlightened kind of oneness, but because his level of intelligence has not developed to the point where he could differentiate between himself and the physical world.

You need to finish reading Ken Wilber's A Brief History of Now, he discussed this. Between falcrum 1 to 9, he speaks of the differences between the level of consciousness as one ages and developes, and then at an even more advanced level (falcrum 7 onwards) transcends his self identity (i.e transpersonal consciousness), and 'falcrum 10' which is not really another state but the 'ground reality' of all states is non-duality.

Cenarious SG

a brief history of everything u mean

An Eternal Now SG

LOL I have absolutely NO IDEA why i said 'a brief history of now' Laughing