what is the name of the part of you that experiences rebirth

la lapine blanche SG

Sorry, I know I've asked this before but still not clear.

Is there a permanent part of us that connects us with our former and future lives? What exactly does it consist of? Is it a permanent, real thing that "holds" our karmic imprint or is it just the karma itself?

I have heard it referred to as the mental continuum. Is this the generally accepted name for it, and is it the same as "subtle mind"?

Thanx

Thusness SG

Hi la lapine blanche,

It is called the Bhavanga in Abhidhamma and has caused a great deal of controversy. It often misunderstood as the "Concealed Atman" in Buddhism. Do study it with care as it can quite misleading if misinterpreted. Smile

casino_king SG

Hi, I think I had warned you before that pursuing this line of enquiry can be dangerous. Yet the biggest prize is always where the most danger is.

I understand that you were from the Christian tradition. Buddha had told his disciples to take his teaching as rafts to cross over the rivers of ignorance but to discard the rafts once you have cross over each river.

When you cannot find rafts to aid you in Buddhism and in the light of this teaching by Buddha (to discard his rafts and not take his teaching dogmatically,) you might want to revisit what Jesus taught regarding this question (rather than what the church taught.)

The Tibetan Dailai Lama and the Catholic Pope had no qualms being friendly with each other. So you should also not be too hesitant to try to discover the truth for yourself, whether it is from Buddhism or Jesus.

sinweiy SG

AMTF!

experience is just experience. one moment one can feel happy, and on the next lonely. experience also undergo changes, and arises due to conditions. hence it's also 'empty' of self-nature. in the heart sutra, even the inherent existence and five aggregates are empty (ie undergo change and conditioning).

"Shariputra, whatever son or daughter of the lineage wishes to engage in the practice of the profound perfection of wisdom should look perfectly like this: subsequently looking perfectly and correctly at the emptiness of inherent existence also of the five aggregates.
"Form is empty; emptiness is form. Emptiness is not other than form; form is not other than emptiness. Likewise, feeling, discrimination, compositional factors and consciousness are empty.

http://web.singnet.com.sg/~rjp31831/hsutra.htm

if u want to know the real and pure essence that do not change. it's the origin ability of the senses, MINUS off the attachment, discrimination and wandering thoughts.

reference: read Shurangama Sutra texts in purple:
http://buddhism.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=198738&page=4

/\

An Eternal Now SG

And why do you presume that there is no answer in Buddhism on this before even trying to find out? Rolling Eyes

casino_king SG

Because I spent so much time asking the same question in the topic "What is REAL" in Buiddhism?

And also what Thusness posted in this thread (2nd) post?

As far as I can see, there is some sorh of gap in Buddhism regarding this although much of Buddhism makes plenty of sense.

An Eternal Now SG

Do look into the Yogacara explanation on the 8th Consciousness:

http://online.sfsu.edu/~rone/Buddhism/Yogacara/BasicVerseseighthcons.htm

Its nature is exclusively the non-obscuring indeterminate, and it interacts with the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas.

Before its transformation into wisdom, the eighth consciousness always arises together with the seventh consciousness and the Five Universally Interactive Dharmas: attention, contact, feeling, conceptualization, and deliberation. The nature of the eighth consciousness is said to be "non-obscuring" because it does not obscure True Thusness. The eighth consciousness can also be said to be "unobscured" because its own nature is not obscured by the mind-dependent dharmas that arise with it. It is indeterminate because, being passive, it does not make the distinctions of wholesome and unwholesome or any other distinctions.

The eighth consciousness contains seeds, karmic potentials created by previous karmic activities. The seeds ripen and become actual dharmas as they are "perfumed" by the karmic activity of the first seven consciousnesses. The image here is built on an analogy with of sesame seeds, which take on the fragrance of the sesame plant's flowers or of any fragrance with which they come into contact.

...........................

----------------

The first 7 consciousness, which is the 6 sense consciousness + 7th consciousness, are propelled by cause and conditions due to the ripening of karmic seeds from the 8th Consciousness. The volition of a sentient being plants a karmic seed into the 8th consciousness whenever a cause that will lead to a karmic result is committed. The 8th Consciousness can also be seen as a 'tape recorder', as our memories and past life memories are stored in this consciousness.

8th Consciousness by itself is 'non-obscuring', and due to delusion, there arise the 7th Consciousness which takes the 8th Consciousness as a permanent entity, as a 'Self'. Therefore awakening is the transform 'consciousness' to 'awareness'/'wisdom'. 7th Consciousness is basically, the egoic consciousness, consciousness of a seperate self.

In reality, consciousness is also 'non-self', 'impermanent', - a continuum. Not a permanent entity.

casino_king SG

Consciousness does not exist independently. If that which the consciousness arises is inherently empty, then the consciousness of the that which is inherently empty is itself inherently empty.

That is not the answer the topic starter is asking.

To put it another way, the duality, samsara vs nirvana, not 2 not one and the seeker must transcend this duality. Transcend this duality into what? The transcendance takes the seeker where?

What is that which is permanent does the seeker finds when he transcends?

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
Because I spent so much time asking the same question in the topic "What is REAL" in Buiddhism?

We have already answered you. If you still do not understand, you simply havent asked again in that topic. So don't blame us.

And also what Thusness posted in this thread (2nd) post?

Thusness said it can be misunderstood. In fact any teaching can be misunderstood, Jesus teachings can be misunderstood too. So what's your point?

As far as I can see, there is some sorh of gap in Buddhism regarding this although much of Buddhism makes plenty of sense.

It is very often said that when one is awakened in Buddhism, all the sutras in the Tripitaka will make perfect sense and everything will be understood.

Before awakening, there will always be things that does not make sense because one could not understand yet.

casino_king SG

I am not saying that it makes sense or not but that the answer to the question simply does not exists.

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
What is that which is permanent does the seeker finds when he transcends?

if u want to know the real and pure essence that do not change. it's the origin ability of the senses, MINUS off the attachment, discrimination and wandering thoughts.

impermanence is permanent.

/\

An Eternal Now SG

If you mean that there is something with inherent existence, then indeed, Buddhism does not hold such a view.

An Eternal Now SG

What it means by 'continuum':

Life (Self) is nothing other than the continuous flow of the Now Moment.
The Now Moment ceases as it arises. This moment must completely ceased
and serves as the CAUSE for the next moment to arise.
Therefore Self is a process of series Self1, Self2, Self3, Self4, Self5, Self6...etc
A fixed entity 'Self' does not exist, what really exists is a momentary Self.
Under deep meditation, one is able to observe and sense the karmic and mental factors from moment to moment,
it is these factors that are succeeded from moment to moment and life and life but not a fixed entity.
When the karmic and mental factors subsides, it is known as "The True and Only (and Inherently egoless) Conscious Light (Itself)".

- Thusness

sinweiy SG

Avatamsaka Sutra mentioned: All beings have the Wisdom and virtue of the Thus Come One, but due to wandering thoughts/dualism and attachment, one is not able to precieve it.
If one can just let go of wandering thoughts/dualism and attachment, our original nature of wisdom will be realised.

http://sg.search.yahoo.com/search?p=%E4%B8%80%E5%88%87%E4%BC%97%E7%94%9F%E7%9A%86%E6%9C%89%E5%A6%82%E6%9D%A5%E6%99%BA%E6%85%A7%E5%BE%B7%E7%9B%B8%2C%E4%BD%86%E4%BB%A5%E5%A6%84%E6%83%B3%E6%89%A7%E8%91%97%E8%80%8C%E4%B8%8D%E8%83%BD%E8%AF%81%E5%BE%97&y=All+the+Web&ei=UTF-8&fr=FP-tab-web-t909&x=wrt

/\

neutral_onliner SG

Now i truly understand why pple say buddhism is not suitable for everyone. Understanding buddhism require wisdom Cool

casino_king SG

If Buddhism does not have the answer or does not attempt the answer, then just say so. It is pointless to sound profound when there is nothing there. I am not saying that I understand why Buddhism does not attempt to answer the question, I am simply saying that Buddhism does not give the answer, that is all.

There are many implications when Buddhism does not give an answer to that question.

sinweiy SG

u see no answer, i see infinity answers given.
even no answer is a form of answer.
only a child-like mind need a fixed anwser.
if u want it to be God, then God it is.
so wat's the fix anwser, u want?

/\

casino_king SG

It is pointless to ask me what the answer is. I am only interested in what answer Buddhism gives to this question.

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
It is pointless to ask me what the answer is. I am only interested in what answer Buddhism gives to this question.[/b]

already given above..but u don't want to accept and only wanted an answer u wanted. how? Confused

/\

casino_king SG

Then where and who is Buddha? The one who passed away from earth? Without inherent existence then Buddha himself would have "disappeared."