Is Rebirth NOT Reincarnation !

last SG · 2006-05-18T00:57:03+00:00

Just visualise that even right now, that we are constantly being reborn and are succeeded moment to moment. In Buddhism rebirth happens every moment in life....

laoda99 SG

so in short...no two selfs are the same

so i wanna ask abt karma....if no two selfs are the same....how can i have bad karma if the previous self do evil? why should i be responsible for tat?

concerned_man SG

It is not a clone, the conciousness changes a physical body (Just like changing cloth).

Buddha is out of the cycle of Rebirth or Samsara. This is basically what we as a buddhist hopes to achieve. There is no birth and death, good and bad, here and there. past and future, big or small in the state of ONENESS - Enlightenment.

Ito_^ SG

analogy la.

An Eternal Now SG

It is not that this self takes the karma of your previous self. Anyway this splitting into self1, self2, is just a way to show - in reality there is no division. It is spontaneously arising and there is no self to be found.

There is the succession of the karmic factors, the karmic effect is itself ever fluctuating, but in fact no one bears the karmic effect because there is no self.

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.

No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."

- Visuddhimagga XVI 90

It is conditioned arising - karmic factors succeeded from the previous moment.

laoda99 SG

hmm........if there are no self.....can there be no karmic effects as well? Everything is just illusion.....

neutral_onliner SG

this is not wat it meant Cool
u need to understand emptiness

concerned_man SG

No permanent self is pertaining to our body and thoughts. They are not permanent and constantly changing within secs. The one second ago you is not the same as one sec after you.

But the conciousness (our mind, in chinese XIN) is always there. Karmic seeds actually planted in our mind and carries with it. Whenever favourable conditions arises for the seed, consequence will occur.

This is why, consequences may realise within one, two, three or many lifetimes later depending on variable conditions.

laoda99 SG

consciousness is permanent? but self if not right? so this consciousness can be pass to another?

An Eternal Now SG

No, pls read again:

"Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.

No doer of the deeds is found,
No one who ever reaps their fruits,
Empty phenomena roll on,
This view alone is right and true.

No god, no Brahma, may be called,
The maker of this wheel of life,
Empty phenomena roll on,
Dependent on conditions all."

- Visuddhimagga XVI 90

To say otherwise would be nihilism.
What is meant is that the phenomena is empty, not like a 'nothingness', but it means it is dependant on conditions, it cannot be understood in terms of a 'self' or a 'fixed entity'.

laoda99 SG

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

No, pls read again:

"[b]Mere suffering is, not any sufferer is found
The deeds exist, but no performer of the deeds:
Nibbana is, but not the man that enters it,
The path is, but no wanderer is to be seen.

To say otherwise would be nihilism.[/b]

so in short u are saying suffering exists but the sufferer does not exist....

but how can one say he suffer and say he have karmic effects when he himself dun exist at all? Afterall, since the self is non-existent, why should we be bothered by suffering at all...???

neutral_onliner SG

Hi An Eternal Now

the more we talk the more confused they r.As i said learning must be step by step.Don u think they need to noe wat is emptiness first ? Cool

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by neutral_onliner:
Hi[b] An Eternal Now

the more we talk the more confused they r.As i said learning must be step by step.Don u think they need to noe wat is emptiness first ? Cool [/b]

Ya agreed.

concerned_man SG

no it cannot pass to another as it carries one's unique karmic seeds. We are all different because our karmas are different and the way we think is different. This is why there is diversity.

laoda99 SG

ok....so now....the karmic seeds can be pass from who to who...since no self is the same.....i am confused?!!!

neutral_onliner SG

i think u will cause confusion unless they fully understand wat karma is

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by laoda99:
so in short...no two selfs are the same

so i wanna ask abt karma....if no two selfs are the same....how can i have bad karma if the previous self do evil? why should i be responsible for tat?[/b]

What is Reborn ?

A very good, classic & somewhat complex question!

In brevity:

Causes & Conditioning is passed on & reborn ...

No being, substance, soul or self is reborn as such assumed constant entity or core substance has never existed or ever been observed in the first place...
So how can it then ever be 'reborn' !!!

Existence is a chain of discrete mental states (dhammas) all new yet conditioned
by the prior, both proximate and far.

Just like the pearl in a necklace is in contact with the next & next & next etc.

In that way do the prior mental moment condition the next;

Some Examples:

If angry now in this moment one cannot be happy in the immediate next moment,
but is conditioned to be either angry also there or indifferent!

If glad now in this moment one cannot be angry in the immediate next moment,
but is conditioned to be either glad also there or indifferent!

One is 'reborn' in every moment of life!
Frequency = ~ billions/second!

The conditioning in the terminal life moment is crucial as it determines the next state:

If having killed many beings in life how then to die in a peaceful & calm state ?
Due to the agitation of remorse & regrets in death moment => bad state rebirth.

If having given & done much good in life it is easy to die in peaceful state !
Due to the satisfied serene content in death moment => good state rebirth.

Mind or consciousness descends & settles at a new level corresponding or fitting
to its last mixture of characteristics. Very mechanic & not metaphysical at all!

Like a protein molecule sediments in a mixed solution according to its boyancy.

/\

neutral_onliner SG

The Buddha's vsion of the world is not something we must accept thru blind faith.Hw could blind faith equate to the wisdom of enlightenment?There's a truth contained in the teachings tat can only be discovered thru critical reasoning & direct experience.It's therefore important to ask 'How is it reasonable to believe in rebirth?'

It seems tat if we study tis question without prejudice we will come to understand tat rebirth is the onli vaild way to account for the reality of consciousness.

neutral_onliner SG

The Buddha asks us not to attach to the five aggregates through which we perceive the world because they induce suffering. We must think of these aggregates as modes which in Sanskrit is called, skandha.

The five modes are namely, appearance, sensation, concepts, impressions, and consciousness.

According to the Buddha, we take these five modes to be who they really are. When we do this, consciousness, which is the most subtle mode of all, becomes established as subject & object . As a result, so to speak, consciousness stores the results of these five modes, including itself, because it is completely mutable.

Thus, consciousness becomes habituated to cling to the five aggregates which include itself. When we die, this same consciousness has a propensity to continue the same course of being.

According to the Buddha, this consciousness is what gets reborn. It can have an affinity for a particular embryo or many kinds of other forms. When rebirth happens consciousness then gets interiorized when conception takes place between the egg and the sperm.

Right now, as you read this, you are such a consciousness which is interiorized in a body existing in five modes. The Buddha calls our present state of being, in which our previous consciousness has been reborn and interiorized into our present body, "old karma". The Buddha says this is suffering because we are subsisting on what we truly are not.

How can we stop becoming reborn into states of being which are suffering? The Buddha tells us that we must turn our consciousness to that which is unestablished; which is beyond the five modes, this being who we truly are.

Consciousness which turns to what is unestablished commences in nirvana. This means that consciousness has nothing objective upon which it might subsist. Since consciousness is subject & object based, without an object it naturally ceases. What is thus revealed, as a result of its cessation, is the freedom of oneself as pure mind. Pure mind is, simply put, spiritual power. With such power, this is true liberation from any possibility of rebirth.

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by laoda99:
hmm........if there are no self.....can there be no karmic effects as well? Everything is just illusion.....

i try seldom to use "no" self. but use Not self instead. Not the self is better than "no", which is nihilism, annihilationism.
like concerned-man said, self is changing all the time, hence it's not the real and unchanging self, hence not self. the real self is the original non-discriminating, non attached, non-labeling ..pure self. 5 year old when one see the gange river and the now when an old man see the gange river, all is changing be it the labelling mind or the river itself. but the original pure seeing itself never change, it's just seeing, without discrimnation. if one can return to that, one's very near enlightenment.

very complicated, hence Buddha was slience, when ask if there's self or not.
just remember, the Buddha rejected both extremes of eternalism and nihilism.

/\

neutral_onliner SG

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it only transforms (e.g., thermo-energy, nuclear energy, solar energy, etc.). Matter and Energy have been proven to be interchangeable (Atomic physics and the atomic bomb, Fission & Fusion). All matter is composed of this same basic reality, pure energy.

To the scientist, matter is energy in the state of stress, and change without real substance.

To the psychologist, psyche or mind is no more a fixed entity.

A person is comprised of a psychophysical unit of matter and mind, but mind or 'psyche' is not a soul or a 'self,' in the sense of an enduring entity, something ready-made and permanent.

Mind is a force, a dynamic continuum capable of storing up memories not only of this life but also of past lives or experience.

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