What is REAL? (spinoff)

last SG · 2006-07-05T21:52:15+00:00

Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei: Interesting thought, is there any way to scientifically verify the existence of life after death? Just something that promp...

casino_king SG

Originally posted by An Eternal Now:

Because you are contained within your own experience of spirit, I am unable to discuss with you, unless you do 3 things:

[b]1) Are you able to forgot whatever is being discussed, not even a trace in ur mind, and go back to what that is born spiritually?

2) Seriously look into the link that Longchen posted. Interesting site about stages of progress

3) Most important of all, you must be sincere and stop useless pretense.[/b]

If you do not know the answer or Buddhism does not have the answer than simply say so. I asked you a simple question and that is, what is REAL in Buddhism? Those who have touched reality, what did they say? Nobody had touched reality? Nobody knows? Nobody can say anything about it? Nobody can describe their experience?

An Eternal Now SG

You said before - ask, don't tell.

casino_king SG

Then answer the questions. Simple.

An Eternal Now SG

Question

I think you blur liao. See my previous post.

casino_king SG

Like I said, you are trying to avoid the difficult questions.

Does Buddhism say anything about what is REAL?

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
I would suggest that you have no idea what is REAL because you cannot describe at all what REAL is.

Anyway if you cannot describe "REAL" at least show me how Buddhism describe the "REAL?"[/b]

the word 'Real' is too general, u have to be more specific. the range of answer is mutiple and not fixed. a table can be real to a person, but not to any person per se. like asking, if the animal is not elephant, wat animal is it?

however, if it's of "no origination or destruction", then i think u didn't read my post earlier.

in the Mind-Only School (Yogacara), there are 94 you wei(have origination and destruction) and 6 wu wei (no origination or destruction). not sure the exact translation for the 6 wu wei though. real or not, eventually it is upto mind only.

to know the 6 wu wei (real) read the chinese text - first sentence. unless it's too profound already?

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An Eternal Now SG

What is real is becoming.

sinweiy SG

if the wuwei, youwei is too profound, then from a general level, the three characteristics of existence (impermanence , suffering and impersonality) is Real too.
this also have been posted many time already:

A characteristic is a fact which tells us something about the nature of a things. If a fact is sometimes connected with a things and sometimes not, then it is not a characteristic and will not help us very much to understand the nature of that thing.

Heat, for example, is a fact. Heat is not characteristic of water, as water is not always hot. the heat of water depends upon other factors like sun or an electric stove. But heat is a characteristic of fire because fire is always hot and heat of fire does not depend on any other factors. Heat is always connected with fire and tells us something about the nature of fire.

When the Buddha taught that there are three characteristics of facts of existence. They are generally found in all that exists and so they can tell us something about the nature of existence.

The three characteristics of existence taught by the Buddha are impermanence , suffering and impersonality.

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/5215/uc.html

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sinweiy SG

frm another level - Abhidhamma
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/articles/cosmos1.htm

THE COSMOS
The cosmos is a vast space, unlimited in all directions and timeless i.e. without beginning and end. Any point in space can be the centre of the cosmos and any point of time can be the centre of time. Any length of space is short and any length of time is also short compared to the infinity.

As the cosmos is unlimited in space, there are unlimited number of universes, of galaxies, of solar systems and planets, of substances and living beings. (See Chart 1).

In this cosmos, there are six permanent things or ultimate realities (Paramathas). They are the space, units of mind and four basic abstract elements (or matter) viz, units of abstract earth, abstract waters, abstract air and abstract heat. They have no beginning and no end, too. The units of mind and basic elements are permanent in existence due to their inherent forces of continuous repetitions of birth, existence and death. They are so tiny and so abstract, that they cannot be discerned by any human sense organs or scientific instruments. Only the Buddhas can discern them. The four basic abstract elements should not be mistken as the ordinary earth, water, heat and wind. They are energies.

casino_king SG

- sorry can you please copy that post here on that which is of "no origination or destruction?"

1. What is the link to the Mind-Only School (Yogacara) website that speaks of the 94 and 6?

2. When you say "eventually it is up to mind only" are you saying that the 94 and 6 are up to our own mind to accpet it or not only?

3. About the chinese words, are there english translations?

casino_king SG

samsara as described by the 60 verse is inherently non existing, what is inherently existing? REAL, not conditionally arisen; not inherently empty; not originate from somewhere else.

casino_king SG

The COSMOS is not part of samsara?

sinweiy SG

- sorry can you please copy that post here on that which is of "no origination or destruction?"

ermm..did u recall coping over yourself already, in the second post? and i copy over again in one of my reply post.

Originally posted by casino_king:
1. What is the link to the Mind-Only School (Yogacara) website that speaks of the 94 and 6?

2. When you say "eventually it is up to mind only" are you saying that the 94 and 6 are up to our own mind to accpet it or not only?

3. About the chinese words, are there english translations?

1. same as the one u copied. but in chinese, and too long to translate. if however u are intested, u can search the word "Yogacara".

2. the article said out of Mutual-division (form) and Observing-division (preception) of the mind consciousness, nothing(including the 94, 6, real or delusion) can be conditional.

3. no, as said before. the list of 94 was not listed. my rough translation for the 6 are, the first of the 6 is space, and the last is true/primordial mind. the rest got to do with non-extinguish-able, that are selection, non-selection, stillness, cognition (?)...not quite sure correct or not though.

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sinweiy SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
The COSMOS is not part of samsara?[/b]

i suppose it's another label for reality. reality is made of conventional/samsara/94 youwei and ultimate/nirvanic/6 wuwei; physical and mental.

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sinweiy SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
samsara as described by the 60 verse is inherently non existing, what is inherently existing? REAL, not conditionally arisen; not inherently empty; not originate from somewhere else.

the 6 wuwei.

i think i mistook "inherently existing(ben you)" as brilliantly existing(miao you). as brilliantly existing is also inherently emptiness(ben kong). brilliantly existing is still a illusion. "inherently existing(ben you)" is 6 wuwei.

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casino_king SG

I am looking at the Yogacara and will get back to you. I think that you have not understood my question regarding what is REAL.

I am not talking about what is truth. I am talking about what is REAL. That is, eternal, non destructible, not arisen conditionally.

sinweiy SG

Originally posted by casino_king:
I am looking at the Yogacara and will get back to you. I think that you have not understood my question regarding what is REAL.

I am not talking about what is truth. I am talking about what is REAL. That is, eternal, non destructible, not arisen conditionally.

? i more think you didn't understood my answer 'wuwei'. it is no origination or destruction (as i boldly written) .
u mean no origination or destruction is different from "eternal, non destructible, not arisen conditionally "?

Notably, Yogacara is in opposition to the Nargarjuna's Madhyamaka (Sanskrit: "Middle Way" ) school of Buddhism. While the Madhyamaka school asserted that there is no ultimately real thing, the Yogacara school asserts that only the mind is ultimately existent.
both side is not wrong though.

anyway i drew a graphic on Nargarjuna s idea of samsara=nirvana.

imho
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casino_king SG

Nirvana is Samsara; not 2 not one.

Verse Seven
While the ignorant imagine that annihilation pertains to a created thing that is dissolved, the wise are convinced that annihilation of something created is an illusion.

(Nirvana is not about eliminating something. Nothing really exist, so nothing can really be annihilated. The causes of our suffering do not really exist, so how could they be real eliminated. It is just a matter of directly seeing their real nature.)

There is no real cessation (Liberation) because nothing is really existing in the first place

Your picture suggests that Nirvana replaces Samsara and people become Buddhas.

How can something that is non existing, Samsara, become existing and how can non existing people become existing Buddhas?

sinweiy SG

simply because u took words for words, and misunderstood "non existence" (aka sunyata) to be literal? would help if u apply the 3 factors to understand sunyata.
u can try poking a needle on ur hand or something, see if u think u are "non existence"? wat happen to ur science?

"Nirvana is Samsara; not 2 not one" ....mean they both are within the same 'mental' dimension. therefore Nirvana and Samsara is more regarding on one's state of mind, rather than a 'place'. the Buddha who had purified His mind dwell in nirvana while those who are still defiled, dwell in samsara..even when they are at the same space/location. get it?

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neutral_onliner SG

well i hav been trying to point out his problem from the start Cool

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