which 3 level of impermanence do u understand?

sinweiy SG

http://www.lamayeshe.com/otherteachers/hhdl/itp.pdf

This transient and impermanent nature of reality is not to be understood in terms of something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. That is not the meaning of impermanence at the subtle level. Subtle impermanence refers to the fact that the moment things and events come into existence, they are already impermanent in nature; the moment they arise, the process of their disintegration has already begun. When something comes into being from its causes and conditions, the seed of its cessation is born along with it. It is not that something comes into being and then a third factor or condition causes its disintegration. That is not how to understand impermanence. Impermanence means that as soon as something comes into being, it has already started to decay.

If you limit your understanding of impermanence to somethings continuum, you will comprehend only gross impermanence. You will feel that when certain causes and conditions give rise to something, it remains unchanged as long as the factors that sustain its existence remain unchanged, and begins to disintegrate only when it encounters adverse circumstances. This is gross impermanence.

If, however, you deepen your understanding of impermanence by approaching it at the subtle levelthe moment-to-moment change undergone by all phenomenayou will realize how as soon as some- thing comes into being, its cessation has also begun.

At first you might feel that coming into being and coming to cessation a re contradictory processes, but when you deepen your understanding of impermanence, you will realize that coming into being (birth) and cessa- tion (death) are, in a sense, simultaneous. Thus, the fundamental law of impermanence (the transitory nature of all phenomena) gives us one basis for the possibility of transforming our minds.

for me, the first thing that come to mind is simple understanding of impermanence, that something coming into being, remaining for a while and then ceasing to exist. i can still understand Subtle, gross and even deep impermanence, but need to be reminded of.

/\

An Eternal Now SG

Why Buddha taught Impermanence? (wu chang)

It's because it is to break our attachment to Permanence (you chang). The fact is, there is not a moment of thingness, not a moment of 'chang'. Empty. No two moments are the same, there is no continuity of 'things', only Yuan Qi.

Why during zen sessions the zen master shouts KATZ? Smile Wake you up from your process of thoughts. Just awareness. What is this very moment... just awareness. In this moment, there is just awareness, no 'thingness'. In this very moment, we dont think in terms of time, we dont even know what time is it. It is a timeless dimension, beyond space. How can there be permanence of 'things' then?

Years ago, (when I was still new to Buddhism), after reading a line from heart sutra, 'emptiness is form, form is emptiness', I have a small realisation. Prior to that I do not understand heart sutra, but after that, everything seems clear to me. Our minds have always been attached to 'thingness', grasping on form, names, concepts of 'things'. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. Form does not reject emptiness, emptiness does not reject form, they are not two, not opposites.

paperflower SG

i see.....

so enlightening..... really.....

i know many people still shun the topic of death with defence, even consider it to be "suay" or unrealistic talking about it. our life span is impermanent and death will come unexpectedly. its not pessimistic to talk about it but rather it is realistic wiser to learn to live better and in order to later face death in a more calm and realistic way.

i remember i read a part in the book "tibetan book of living and dying" where sogyal rinpoche shared his experiences on death where he learned from the teachings of death from his masters when they passed away.....

one - was passed away painfully in a mundane way.... with a master by his side explaining and guiding him through the process of dying...

the other - passed away.... as a matter of spiritual mastery - calm, directed, independently....

i feel the most important teachings of impermanence (perhaps, pls correct me if i am wrong) is teachings on death. becos we personally are so sort of temporary not in it or not yet in it, we could not understand the kind of "impermanence".....

An Eternal Now SG

That's right. Death. This is what all Buddhists must confront, and conquer. But first we must have the right understanding of life.

One day, Buddha questioned a number of his students,

"How long can a human life be certain?"
One of the students answered, "For a few days."
Buddha replied, "No, you have not yet understood life."
Buddha then repeated,

"How long can a human life be certain?"
Another student answered, "For a meal."
Again, Buddha replied, "No, you have not understood life either."
Buddha repeated one third time,

"How long can a human life be certain?"
A third student answered, "Only for a breath."
Buddha praised, "Great! You've started to understand life."

And true enough, being one of the most fortunate people in the world, if we still cannot recognise this impermanent nature, not being mindful, then death will sweep us away, and it is such a waste.

neutral_onliner SG

The purpose of contemplating impermanence, death and suffering is not to become depressed and have the joy taken out of life. The purpose is to rid ourselves of attachment and false expectations. If we contemplate these things in such a way that we get emotionally afraid or depressed, then we are not contemplating in the right way. Rather, such subjects should make our mind calm and more lucid as the confusion caused by attachment has been ceased.

Cool

Thusness SG

Yes, there is no ‘something’ coming into being and undergoing disintegration. When the mind attempts to understand the phenomenon existence through our current mode of knowing that works through comparison and measurement, the conclusion we derived seems paradoxical. When we choose to see the ‘arising’, the thinking mind cannot see the cessation. Neither ‘arising’ nor ‘cessation’ ‘is before nor after the other. The sequence is caused by the mind. By choosing one, it has to give up the other. The thinking mind needs a base and the base becomes an ‘entity’, a ’’something’. That ‘something’, that ‘entity’ is required due to the poverty of our thinking mechanism, it is not the true face of reality. A lighting flash of moment exhibits the entirety of the Dharma seals and it is only in Buddhism that is pointed out. Not only that, Buddha also taught us the systematic way of developing the intuitive insight into reality.

maggot SG

Hmm..."come and go" ? Rolling Eyes

neutral_onliner SG

The Buddha taught that nothing is permanent and all things are in a state of continuous change, whether gross or subtle. We as individuals change second by second. The biological and chemical processes that constitute our bodies are changing milli-second by milli-second. Over a longer period, we can see ourselves and other aging year by year. Similarly our thoughts and feelings are also subject to change.

We create problems for ourselves when we try to cling on to everything as if it were permanent rather than appreciating the moment.

Often we go through life looking to repeat pleasurable experiences again and again and again and feeling unhappy when this isn't possible. The Buddha, therefore, asks us to be realistic, to work with what is rather than fool ourselves into pretending life is something else

Cool

Thusness SG

This also raise an interesting and controversial question of whether the pristine awareness is impermanent. We know how boldly the Mahaparinirvana Sutra has aserted that the tathagatagarbha is none other than the Self (Atman). Smile

An Eternal Now SG

I think awareness is 'not moving', but doesn't mean its permanent, because permanence is a form of attachment? Confused

bohiruci SG

the pristine awareness is also impermanence .

However it is not easily understood as we are still using human dimension to view things

Nobody can understand the state of a Buddha unless one is a Buddha oneself ....

Just like Amitabha

people who tried to think of Amitabha Pureland as "too far away" from the multitudes of Buddhaland will never get there
Laughing

Thusness SG

Yes. In the first turning of the dharma wheel, Buddha taught the four noble truth and the lack of inherent existence of the self. In the second turnings, it was taught that all dharma lack inherent existence. To prevent over negation, the third turning was preached. Even in the third turning of the wheel, the Samdhinirmocana sutra of Yogacara, we also see the careful use of the word Self and the clarification of the flow of perceptions without an enduring element. Similar emphasis can also be found in the Mahamudra teaching (some say that it is fourth turning), the emphasis of emptiness is pretty clear. What we witness is in each of the turnings, is the refinement on the idea of impermanence and prevention of people from falling into the nihilistic view that nothing exists but never the calm of the permanence of Buddha-Nature. As the great Zen master Dogen puts it, impermanence is Buddhas Nature.

Nevertheless, any possible reasons why Mahaparinirvana Sutra and Tataghatagarbha sutras assertion for this about-turn?

Lastly, why is this emphasis of impermanence crucial and what has our pristine awareness got to do with it?
Smile

An Eternal Now SG

Nevertheless, any possible reasons why Mahaparinirvana Sutra and Tataghatagarbha sutras assertion for this about-turn?

I also don't know.. can explain? And I got a question - all the different turnings are supposed to lead to the same realisations right? Then why is there a need for so many turnings?

Lastly, why is this emphasis of impermanence crucial and what has our pristine awareness got to do with it?
Smile [/b]

Impermanence is crucial because it teaches on the ungraspable nature of reality... and only when the mind does not abides on anything will awareness be revealed. Also, the idea of 'permanence' comes with objectified reality, and awareness is not a 'thing'. If we say something is permanent, then we're splitting time into Past Present and Future, but in reality there is only the 'NOW moment', every moment is new. Is that right?

Thusness SG

Yes Eternal_Now,

My sentiment exactly. Smile All teachings aim at the same goal (emancipation from samsara) but each turning of the dharma wheel refines our understanding of the true nature of reality during our journey towards enlightenment. Personally, I feel that practitioners should not ascribed levels to the different turnings but should view the turnings of the Dharmachakra as arising due to the ripening of causes and conditions. The first turning focuses on the four noble truths and the emptiness of the self. The second turning is on the importance of the emptiness nature of all phenomenon existence (not only self), that is, the Prajnaparamita teachings. The third turning introduced the presence of Buddha-Nature in everyone. In whatever case, the validity of all discourses must not deviate from the authenticity of the Dharma Seals.

With regards to the bold assertion of certain tathagatagarbha sutras, some scholars ascribed the Hindu influence during the Gupta period where we see strong pressure of traditional Hindu culture. Another possible condition for the emergence of the tathagatagarbha sutras might be the result of over negation in certain practices that eventually led people to mistake Buddhism as nihilistic (On the surface, it is not uncommon that many misunderstood that Buddhism is nihilistic) and a positive language about Nirvana is needed for non-buddhist ascetics as well as buddhist-practitioners.

In my opinion, I feel that the teachings should be viewed as a single whole (Including the first two turnings). When we attempt to pick and drop and take only a part or a snapshot of the teachings and make comments, tathagatagarbha sutras will present as a problem and sound very similar to the non-buddhist ascetics doctrines. However when taken as a whole, the sutras glue and complement.

Very Happy

An Eternal Now SG

I see…

An Eternal Now SG

Hmm but according to Mahayana teachings, the ultimate is emancipation from both Nirvana and Samsara dharma.

Thusness SG

There truly exists a reality beyond conceptual fabrication. Its presence is abiding, the clarity unsurpassed, its action is natural and arising is spontaneous. However this reality should not be taken to mean a permanent unchanging entity. It is ultimate because it is non-dual. Conceptual fabrication categorizes and creates a subject and object division. It is the Tathagatagarbha when lost and Dharmakaya when enlightened. Wink

An Eternal Now SG

It is the Tathagatagarbha when lost and Dharmakaya when enlightened.

Is tathagathagarbha and dharmakaya different?

Thusness SG

Only from a conventional point of view. It is the term used to refer to the latent condition (do not see it as a thingness) which actually brings about enlightenment. Garbha means embryo.

Thusness SG

Yes...very well put. Smile The teaching of Emptiness of having no self, no core, no inherent existence, must not stay at an abstract level. It must be felt, touched and intuitively experienced in everything and in all moments. If it stays at the abstract level, Ground Luminosity of our pristine awareness will not be experienced. Emptiness must cut away the extra layer of abstraction that we have imputed on a Reality-Without-Core. The experience must be intuitive, direct, transcendental, natural and effortless. Reality is dream-like, Ground luminosity is a 'happening'. It is just so. Let it happens. Smile