Colour of the robes during the Buddha's time

last SG · 2006-02-26T02:40:49+00:00

The Buddha gave a wide variety of teachings because sentient beings (any being with mind who is not a Buddha, including those in other realms of existence) h...

marcteng SG

During the Buddha's time, what colour of the robe did the monks wear eh?

What colour of the robes did Buddha wore? orange or yellow?

Theravada colour of the robe is orange though.

sinweiy SG

thus i heard, it's a color of all/any color available dye mixed together, therefore it's quite a 'dirty' color. can try mixing different color of water color, and see the effect. it's to symobolise muiti-cultural/ethnic
cohesion of human being.

/\

sanath SG

Could be of all sorts of colours, but probably mostly orange or maroon like what most Theravadin monks wear now. The robes have undergone changes to suit the country/region/culture of the people Buddhism propagated to, that's why robes worn Mahayana Buddhist countries look different from each other.
Gassho

earthling82 SG

It is stated in the sutras that the Sangha, which may incld the Buddha, wore robes stitched together by multiple rags that ppl throw away. The color of the rags are usually dark colors. Sometimes it is common to see the robes in different colors because the rags that made it up are different in color

In the past cloth is considered a luxury item unlike now.

When Buddhism spreaded to China, the Chinese discarded the traditional sangha robe and wore their own chinese traditional clothes instead. So to say the chinese sangha robes are "traditional" is actually false. I would call it "Old-Fashioned". This is because the chinese changed the robe to be more in line with the fashion then. But over the years, ppl dun wear like that anymore but they still stick to the old Luo Han costume. Its just a dilemma.

An Eternal Now SG

Earthling82, you are familiar. Are you from Ren Cheng? You post in the forum before right? what was your older nickname.

earthling82 SG

what happens is this. Rencheng is too focused on Ven Sheng Kai. I found out a handful of things that indeed is problematic and limiting with rencheng's doctrines. Of course when I talk to rencheng disciples, ppl cannot accept and listen. A lot of rencheng disciples cannot get Ven Sheng Kai out of their heads.

A lot of things has to be addressed if Rencheng is to grow.

An Eternal Now SG

Are you kiat wee, the one who helped us with the other forum last time?

An Eternal Now SG

In regards to RC being too focused on Ven Shen Kai, I would say, 'bu-jian-de'. We also publish teachings from Ven Xue Song, and other fa shis from taiwan who learnt under Ven Shen Kai. But we dont mix around with other sects bcos it may cause confusions. I dont see Teacher Chen Ming An, who was asked to do the dharma transmissions for shi fu shortly before he passed away, to be that way. I dont know about other fa shis. But I believe many people would want to focus on teaching Ven.Shen Kai teachings because they dont think their wisdom is greater than his. I dont see people around me who cant get ven shen kai out of their heads too.

Btw, teacher chen ming an is coming to Singapore this march 12th to chuan fa.. at my dharma centre. Im not sure about Vihara's side, its a different date. You may wish to check out with others.

earthling82 SG

I did not choose to discard Rencheng w/o a reason. And Buddhist federation did not ban Rencheng w/o a good reason. There are many things that are false in rencheng's books fyi.

An Eternal Now SG

Uhh... so do I know you Question so who r u?

An Eternal Now SG

Very strange. I got your email in my MSN. Do you used to frequent Ren Cheng Vihara?

earthling82 SG

there is one thing we must know. The Da Zhi Mu Fa...or Prajna Paramita in Theravada ... is also taught in Theravada Buddhism. To hold fast that its a Rencheng dhamma is a gross action of narrowing the greatness of Buddhism. Many rencheng disciples I met cannot believe that I found outside centers teaching Prajna Paramita.

Futhermore rencheng inherits many of Chinese Buddhism faults. I did not know this until I spoke with a western monk who personally show me what the faults are. Its so obvious, but because you're stuck mentally to this center that you overlooked the seriousness of the problem. Rencheng also carried with it a lot of cultural and language baggage which is contradicting with its movement principle

In the Abidhama its stated there are 96 faults with Mahayana Buddhism while there are only 62 faults with Theravada Buddhism.

An Eternal Now SG

Buddhist Federation did not ban RC, it is RC that chose not to be in Buddhist federation. And I dont think there is anything wrong with the teachings. There was a venerable who spoke against Ren Cheng with regards to the costumes, but as you have already said above regarding the costumes. It's just a tradition.

What exactly is false in ren cheng's books? Btw, There were venerables who felt it was wrong about certain descisions that buddhist federations has taken but did not dare to speak up.

It is just too unfortunate that Master Shen Kai had to depart just shortly before all these things happened. He had to take up some of his disciples karma... lots and lots of trouble has been going on in Taiwan and things have been going downhill... only until recently.

An Eternal Now SG

I do not know whether it is right to equate Prajna Paramita with Da Zhi Mu Fa just because the name sounds similar. But yes, Prajna Paramita sutras are all 'commentaries of Da Zhi Mu Fa', as Shi Fu has put it. And Shi Fu did not say it is solely Ren Cheng dharma, but he said it was 'Patriarch's dharma, passed down from patriarches'. Smile And he also warned people not to anyhow 'bang4 fa3'.

Prajna Paramita is taught throughout Mahayana. But obtaining a dharma transmission is a different thing. Go look into Zen tradition and find out what it means to obtain dharma transmissions. Special dharma transmissions are only passed down from zen master to those who would become the next zen patriarch.

I think whatever baggage, cultural language problem, all these things are unimportant. We know we need to set aside all these things. But even though not all have been done, if we just focus on the dharma, how can these baggages or problems affect our cultivation?

earthling82 SG

Firstly when you open any Rencheng Book, it will have a short intro of Rencheng, which it claims to be a world first in the Wei Fo Zong.

This Wei Fo Zong is already present even before Rencheng's time. In theravada its called Buddhayana.

And to say rencheng choose not to be part of SBF is laughable. Do you think SBF wants to associate itself with Rencheng? Its just a graceful way by Rencheng as an excuse.

When u pick up some CDs or books, many of the things spoken are one-sided. Also rencheng has a cultural of downplaying Theravada Buddhism esp the role of Arhats in Buddhism. The truth is that Buddha is also an Arhant ... that is once you know the real meaning of Arhant in Pali language.

In short rencheng inherits many of the faults of Chinese Buddhism

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by earthling82:
[b]Firstly when you open any Rencheng Book, it will have a short intro of Rencheng, which it claims to be a world first in the Wei Fo Zong.

This Wei Fo Zong is already present even before Rencheng's time. In theravada its called Buddhayana.

Buddhayana is essentially same as Wei Fo Zong in my understanding, but only in different aspect of conveying it. In fact Shen Kai Shi Fu did not teach dharma in any 'Zong', he did not name any sect until 1993. Its bcos many ppl want a name and therefore my master gave it a name which he thinks suits it best. Not wei-shi (consciousness-only sect), but wei-fo.

And to say rencheng choose not to be part of SBF is laughable. Do you think SBF wants to associate itself with Rencheng? Its just a graceful way by Rencheng as an excuse.

I checked around and do not know what is the official stance of SBF prior to the controversy. But anyway whether SBF recognise RC just because of the robe issue, doesnt matter us. You yourself already said it is just a cultural baggage. And unfortunately there are a lot of things in Singapore Buddhism that is still strongly tied to these baggages. Mahayana robes that we know nowadays are not the same robes as what Buddha wore.

I dare to say that when Buddhism needs to go to space, all the monks and nuns uniforms will totally be changed. They will no longer be wearing the robes that Buddha wore in those days, but instead, they will be wearing spacesuits.

When u pick up some CDs or books, many of the things spoken are one-sided. Also rencheng has a cultural of downplaying Theravada Buddhism esp the role of Arhats in Buddhism. The truth is that Buddha is also an Arhant ... that is once you know the real meaning of Arhant in Pali language.

In short rencheng inherits many of the faults of Chinese Buddhism

Ren cheng did not downplay the role of Arhants in Buddhism. Our books have mentioned Arhants over and over again, and we do not generally speak disparagingly about liberated saints. But encouraged people to walk the Bodhisattva path. This is just a typical characteristics of all Mahayana traditions. Do you include Mahayana sutras as being a fault of Chinese Buddhism? This is a whole different issue.

earthling82 SG

you are too ready to defend RC WY. This is the problem. This is why I left RC. Because of ppl like you. If you perceive RC to be good, then there is a perception of Bad. He who talks in terms of Good/Bad does not see the Dhamma and is trapped in the dualism of samsara. The dhamma is everywhere but you only see it in RC thru Ven Sheng Kai.

I still go back once in a while and interact with the ppl there. Because to me, everything in life is practise, I find no need to adhere to any center. The external is what RC is all about. The internal RC is to be realised. Like what Ven Jue Wu said there is no need to adhere to Buddhism. Just adhere to the Dhamma. Now when I say Dhamma, refer to the Pali meaning of Dhamma before you comment.

An Eternal Now SG

Originally posted by earthling82:
[b]you are too ready to defend RC WY. This is the problem. This is why I left RC. Because of ppl like you. If you perceive RC to be good, then there is a perception of Bad. He who talks in terms of Good/Bad does not see the Dhamma and is trapped in the dualism of samsara. The dhamma is everywhere but you only see it in RC thru Ven Sheng Kai.

It is not a matter of good or bad. But being someone to 'hu fa'. Smile Against people who speak falsely. BTW I do not have any biasness for RC, if you speak falsely about Vajrayana, about Zen, about Theravada, I would be ready to 'defend'.

And I did not hide facts just becos "i perceive RC to be good".

BTW I already know who you are, and who you are directly speaking of. I think it is just a misunderstanding. Some other people do not get in touch with other sects and therefore do not understand the other sects well enough than us. But its ok - just let him focus on his own path.

I still go back once in a while and interact with the ppl there. Because to me, everything in life is practise, I find no need to adhere to any center. The external is what RC is all about. The internal RC is to be realised. Like what Ven Jue Wu said there is no need to adhere to Buddhism. Just adhere to the Dhamma. Now when I say Dhamma, refer to the Pali meaning of Dhamma before you comment.

Adhering to a particular practise is impt for us, bcos we advocate Yi Men Shen Ru. Because all Buddhist sects teach differently and practise different ways, we must focus on a particular one. You cant possibly practise all the dharma doors. It will only confuse yourself. Therefore if practise zen, just focus on zen. If practise vajrayana, focus on vajrayana.

And we do agree that all 84000 dharmas doors are equal. But 'yi men shen ru' is impt.

But I also agree with what you said. Everywhere is dao4 chang3.

BTW it is undeniable that Ren Cheng still got Chinese baggage. Its not something that we say we want, then we can simply get rid of them. Its not so easy. I believe what shi fu did was already a big step. He wanted to create a 'Global Buddhism'. Too little can be done in that era.

It must be done in a free environment like United States. Thats the only hope.

earthling82 SG

It is not a matter of good or bad. But being someone to 'hu fa'. Smile Against people who speak falsely.

Now you talk about against ppl who speak falsely. Life taught me this. I have friends who are non-Buddhist but to me they know more Dhamma than our long-time followers of RC. Strange? This is because I am able to peel away the words and look deep into their inner thoughts. What we type and say is sometimes not what we think!

U can't be Ru Fa. Trying to be something else instead of who you are is delusional. The reason is because both good and evil kamma is in accordance with the dhamma and dhamma is all fair. Aiyah u must know wat is Dhamma first...tell you already go and look into Pali.

Let me give you a suprise. I actually learnt more about RC outside of RC. Unbelivable? Thats because Ren also exist outside of the centers. I walk amongst them and learn from them. I always say this to RC disciples. You are not anywhere Ru Fa just by putting Ven Sheng Kai's words on your mouth or in your hearts. Why? The reason is because your job as a Buddhist is to contemplate the universe...and not to narrow it down to being in line with your center or a monk.

Why I started by blaming RC is to invoke you to see this problem common amongst RC disciples. Do you get my intention?

Cenarious SG

what the hell is a Ru Fa??