Arahats walking off when Buddha preach mahayana?

sinweiy SG

this would be a difficult question.
i thought i heard the Buddhist text on Arahats walking off when Buddha talk mahayana? wonder if any one have an idea on the text/sutra?

and if so, why such a scenario?

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marcteng SG

The 500 arahants took leave before the Buddha spoke on the Bodhisattva path.

The Buddha foresaw about these 500 arahants would took leave and he did not ask them to stay behind cos they thought they have already achieved liberation and is not keen to hear what the Buddha was about to expound the Mahayana's path.

After the 500 monks took leave, the Buddha then expounded the mahayana's path to those present as these gathering of monks are ready to accept the Mahayana's path, that includes the chief disciple Shariputra and the Buddha prophesied that they will attain Buddhahood in future.

In my opinion, those 500 monks that left the assembly are not open minded to hear what the Buddha has to expound abt the Mahayana's path and they thought they have already attained Nirvana and thus, is not necessary to continue. They thought they have already know what is to be know and therefore, felt that its not necessary for them to hear the Buddha expound on the Mahayana's path.

bohiruci SG

It is stated in the Lotus sutra that the 500 monks ,and it is not on mahayana
teaching

Buddha didnt teach one sutra of mahayana teaching ,

There is also other teachings on Mahayana teaching.the arahats did not leave ,they were just similar to deaf and blind when Buddha show the
210 billion Buddhaland from Vulture Peak and expounded the Mahayana teaching to devas and heavenly beings

sinweiy SG

found :
Lotus Sutra
CHAPTER TWO
EXPEDIENT DEVICES

Thereupon the World Honored One told Shariputra, "Since you have earnestly requested three times, how can I not speak? You should now listen attentively, think upon it well, and be mindful of it; I will explain it in detail for your sake."

As he said these words, five thousand Bhikshus, Bhikshunis, Upasakas, and Upasikas in the assembly rose from their seats, made obeisance to the Buddha and left. What was the reason? The roots of their offenses were deep and grave and they were of such overweening pride that they claimed to have obtained what they had not yet obtained and to have certified to that to which they had not yet certified to. With faults such as these they could not stay. The World Honored One remained silent and did not restrain them.

The Buddha then told Shariputra, "My assembly has now been cleared of its branches and leaves and only the trunks remain. Shariputra, it is excellent that those of overweening pride have left. You should now listen well and I shall speak it for you."

Shariputra said, "So be it, World Honored One. I wish joyfully to hear it."

The Buddha told Shariputra, "A wonderful Dharma such as this is spoken only occasionally by the Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, just as the Udumbara flower appears but once in a great while.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/resources/sutras/lotus/sources/lotus2.htm
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An Eternal Now SG

When the Buddha proclaims that the 3 Vehicles (Arhat, Pratyekabuddha, Bodhisattva) are only expedient means - that ultimately, there is only 1 Buddha Vehicle, the Arhats and Pratyekabuddhas could not accept it. Shakyamuni Buddha has already from the start stated that it would be difficult for the arhats and pratyekabuddhas to comprehend this truth.

At the beginning of Saddharmapu.n.dariika "Upaaya (ii)", in response to the thrice-spoken entreaty of `Saariputra, `Saakyamuni starts to deliver a profound sermon that the `sraavakas and pratyekabuddhas in the audience would have difficulty comprehending: that the setting up of the three vehicles was in fact merely an upaaya (expedient device), for in reality there is only one Buddha vehicle. It is recorded that, at this point, 5,000 members of the Assembly -- bhik.sus, bhik.su.niis, laymen and laywomen -- rose up as a body to take their leave. After `Saakyamuni gave them permission with a silent nod, he turned to `Saariputra and said, "It's a good thing those haughty ones have made their departure, as the Assembly has now gotten rid of a lot of unnecessary elements" (Chêng fa-hua, 69, b18 ff.; Sanskrit text, 38, 12 ff., gaathaas 38-41).

oxford mushroom SG

Originally posted by sinweiy:
found :
Lotus Sutra
CHAPTER TWO
EXPEDIENT DEVICES

Thereupon the World Honored One told Shariputra, "Since you have earnestly requested three times, how can I not speak? You should now listen attentively, think upon it well, and be mindful of it; I will explain it in detail for your sake."

[b]As he said these words, five thousand Bhikshus, Bhikshunis, Upasakas, and Upasikas in the assembly rose from their seats, made obeisance to the Buddha and left. What was the reason? The roots of their offenses were deep and grave and they were of such overweening pride that they claimed to have obtained what they had not yet obtained and to have certified to that to which they had not yet certified to. With faults such as these they could not stay. The World Honored One remained silent and did not restrain them.

The Buddha then told Shariputra, "My assembly has now been cleared of its branches and leaves and only the trunks remain. Shariputra, it is excellent that those of overweening pride have left. You should now listen well and I shall speak it for you."

Shariputra said, "So be it, World Honored One. I wish joyfully to hear it."

The Buddha told Shariputra, "A wonderful Dharma such as this is spoken only occasionally by the Buddhas, the Thus Come Ones, just as the Udumbara flower appears but once in a great while.
http://www.buddhistdoor.com/resources/sutras/lotus/sources/lotus2.htm
/\[/b]

I understand that an Arhat is supposed to have overcome the three poisons of desire, hatred and ignorance. Without desire, why is there 'overweening pride'? Isn't pride a reflection of a desire for acclamation? If that pride is so great that they would not listen to the revelation to come, has he overcome ignorance?

An Eternal Now SG

I am not too sure if all the 5000 people who left before the Lotus Sutra was taught were all arhants and pratyekabuddhas... some of those who were arhants and pratyekabuddhas did not have pride and desire in the worldly sense, but they believe their enlightenment to be the final and supreme state and therefore can't be bothered to listen. Only the Buddha's state is supreme, therefore called Annutara-samyak-sambodhi: Supreme perfect enlightenment, the enlightenment of a Buddha. Also, the Great Arhants remained in the assembly... so not all have left.

Secondly, the Arhat has overcome ignorance in regards to the 4 noble truths. However he did not have Buddha's omniscience. They also cannot comprehend some of the higher truths taught to the Bodhisattvas.

The ten fetters that the Arhat has removed: http://sped2work.tripod.com/fetters.html

10. Avijja is translated as "ignorance", but this is ignorance in a special sense. It does not mean ignorance as it is used in the everyday sense, but it means specifically ignorance of the Four Noble Truths and the delusion which prevents us from seeing the real nature of impermanence and Dukkha. Last of of The Three Poisons.

sinweiy SG

Arahat would have overcome the Ten Fetters than to say the three poisons.

10th fetter. Avijja is translated as "ignorance", but this is ignorance in a special sense. It does not mean ignorance as it is used in the everyday sense, but it means specifically ignorance of the Four Noble Truths and the delusion which prevents us from seeing the real nature of impermanence and Dukkha. Last of of The Three Poisons.

http://sped2work.tripod.com/fetters.html

there's another higher kind of ignorance called undefiled ignorance (akilishta nana). evenso ...'hatred' also got higher or very fine form, aka dualism which the Bodhisattvas are working to sever.
you may say they (arahats) had sever desire. pride on the other hand would be associated with hatred/dualism than desire.
Arhats cling to nirvana(a form of bliss/liberation) and reject/dislike samsara. having this 'dislike', their hatred/dualism is not severed.

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