Hungarian Grand Prix: 31 July

last SG · 2005-08-01T17:14:25+00:00

Bridgestone tyre really cannot mkae it… Schumi was bouncing all over in the last 5 laps…

Gedanken SG

Ah, Heng, now there you've just undermined yourself. Kimi flatspotted that front right, and that was nobody's doing but his own, unlike Alonso at Monza! Razz

[email protected] SG

im talking about monaco 03 for alonso. u remember that moment where alonso, as he was spinning, flipped half the bird? as for monza, i recall alonso destroying his undertray AND destroying that bargeboard as a result of running over a chicane by himself a few laps into the race, certainly had nothing to do with jos.

as for yesterday, yea kimi had the faster car, but this is hungary we're talking about. u could see for yourself the chances kimi had to take even just to pass the blue flagged cars. remember this year the aero rules are such that its much harder to follow a car in front closely. the moment u get close, u lose downforce, and u lose ground. Why else do u think MS could keep getting a better run out of the final corner? it wasn't just kimi, alonso was also more or less trying to follow rubens thru, and if alonso was such a racer, why wouldn't he have passed rubens by the end of the race? he only had nosecone damage, and at most a bit of light undertray damage, nothing he couldn't handle, and his car was so much more superior than the ferrari ain't it? Trulli was bloody driving without a whole rear diffuser and he still managed 4th.

Besides, hey if Alonso was such a racer, why didn't he just pass his teammate in Canada instead of whining n Bitching about it on the radio to his team? Laughing He had to wait till Fisi's car failed to get past, and then he promptly drove it into the wall.

[email protected] SG

but i didn't undermine myself. because alonso certainly caused majority ofthe damage from driving over a chicane at monza.

Alonso also drove into the wall trying to lap ralf in monaco 03, drove into a tyre in brazil despite waved double yellows, and drove into a wall by himself in canada 05.

he IS impressive, alonso, i liked his performance in imola, but that was very much due to the aero regs as well.

finally, i don't like the way he drives the car.he jerks the wheel and unsettles the car into understeering. urgh.

[email protected] SG

btw for monaco, ask any racing driver and they’ll tell u its suicide to drive out onto marbles. maybe its survivable so bad on proper racing circuits which are used more often, but at monaco, which is used once a year, and with its armco barriers and no run off area? what WAS he thinking? that is a mistake only beginners would make. and instead of backing off, he gunned it?! on the marbles?! urgh. no use if he has bollocks but no brains.

Gedanken SG

Monaco '03? Can't say I remember - didn't Alonso finish fifth after starting from eighth? Lemme see if I can get my hands on the footage.

As for Monza, the car's handling was already off after the job Jos did on it. Was it unforced? Yes. Was it an unforced error? No.

As you noted, Hungary's a bad place to overtake for position - Fisichella only managed to squeeze by Rubens after Rubens got onto the marbles. What I'm saying is that yesterday's race is no reflection of anybody being a real racer - you know Hungary and Monaco are characteristically like that, and that's why some fans have been arguing for both to be taken off the calendar. Again, yesterday, only Albers and the Jordan drivers were being difficult about blue flags - the rest literally went out of their way to keep from holding the leaders back.

Canada? What was he going to do? Take a charge at Fisi and cost Renault all their points right then and there? This isn't Senna/Prost or Mansell/Piquet we're talking about here, and Alonso isn't anywhere as close to dumb as Half. If anything, Fisi was having an uncharacteristically good day out and was enjoying th moment, but he was holding his team mate up.

Gedanken SG

BTW, for Canada, Kimi shouldn’t have won – somehow, the marshalls forgot to give him a penalty for almost clouting Coulthard out of the pits, and he got at least 25 seconds of lead he didn’t deserve.

[email protected] SG

well thats motor racing. sometimes u get the luck, sometimes u don't for every canada he didn't deserve to win, there are more that he does. Imola, France, UK and Hockenheim. so lets not talk about the shoulds and should-nots Laughing

[email protected] SG

as for monaco 03, trust me. he did not finish. Was running 3rd when he made that beginner's error.

as for monza, well lets just say that if u know your car's slightly off, perhaps u really ought to bear that in mind and not overcook it eh? I mean, going off and thus destroying his undertray AND a bargeboard wasn't going to help him go faster really. Racing is not just about balls, like i said. Brains are needed as well. Which is why i prefer kimi. I've too often seen alonso's intelligence blanking out. As well as doing the prima donna, such as Bitching n whining about Fisi. Team mate or not, we have a universal mantra in racing.
"If u're faster, overtake. Don't just Bitch that u're faster" Laughing

Kuali Baba SG

Heng...it's Monaco last year...Ralf was driving the walrus. Laughing

I'd say Räikkönen pushes to make the strategy work. His pace is blinding quick and he rarely makes mistakes (like the one in Montreal '03) but as Goodwin says, it's the team's job to give him a fast and reliable car...it's fast, easy on the tyres and has a big sweet spot but it breaks more easily than the Renault. Alonso's approach makes him look like a bat out of hell by contrast...those were Stoddart's words when he tested for Minardi.

[email protected] SG

oh it was last year? my bad. i kept thinking its the same year button had that awful accident in monaco.

Anyways if alonso could keep his cool more i'd like him a lot more. Afterall I would tell my parents im keeping my hair in his style when they point out that my hair's too long. They'd go, look at Kimi his hair's short, then i'd go but yea... look at alonso and trulli... Laughing

Gedanken SG

That's funny, Heng - there you are talking about shoulds and should-nots, and in the very next breath you're going on about how Alonso shouldn't b!tch. Now do we go with "shoulds" or don't we? Razz

And if you want to talk about drivers exercising judgement, well, yeah, you're right. I suppose at the end of 2003 Kimi would have been ruing the day that he piled into the back of Pizzonia, costing him the points that would have made him 2003 WDC. Iceman - riiiiight. Laughing

2003's a great year for assessing Kimi's performance. Michelin had the edge over Bridgestone, and the WDC was almost within his grasp - almost.

Kimi could have made up the points he needed by pushing JPM (with a busted engine) at Monaco, but he played the percentages and hung back way too far to take advantage. Whoops - wrong percentages.

And what happened after the third pitstop in France? Kimi literally gave MS third place.

Oh, and the British GP, that's a real beauty. Some clown in a kilt literally hands Kimi the lead and what does he do? He gives not only first to Rubens, but second to JPM. Real cool.

Sure, there's no denying that Kimi's quick, very possibly quicker than Alonso. Hell, by Brazil 2003 I was hoping that he'd be WDC, and it was his to take while Ferrari were trying to find their feet mid-season, but in Monaco, France and Britain he played the percenatges. Think about it - what if he'd gunned it? Kimi's fast, but he's going to need the aggressiveness to go, "Oh no you don't" when another driver's having a good day. For a positive demonstration, watch Alonso holding off MS in the closing laps of Imola 2005. Kimi, on the other hand, is either romping off in the lead with a clearly superior car, or he's playing it so safe that more aggressive drivers rape him for points.

And sure, he doesn't b!tch about things like that - why should he gripe about being faster when other drivers are passing him for position? He just shrugs his shoulders, says "Oh well", then goes out and takes out his misplaced aggression by getting blasted at the end of the season, making a complete ass of himself. Laughing

If you want to call Alonso a hothead, I don't think there's anybody who would disagree with you on that one. Then again, Senna was regarded as one of the biggest hotheads around, especially when he won his first WDC in 1988. When it comes to wheel-to-wheel racing, it's going to make all the difference, it's going to make the crucial points to decide a WDC, and it's what makes the difference between a racer and a driver.

[email protected] SG

lets see, when i mean the shoulds and should-nots, i mean talking about who should have won what race. Certainly not about what they should or should not be doing.

U're gonna have to refresh me, which was the race he piled into Pizza. Monaco... well no overtaking there is there? UK, well his car had a problem. At least he didn't throw it off the road so much that he damaged it. As for playing percentages, I doubt if u can be 100% sure about that. 03 was a very mixed season, and who knows how good the McLaren was? Besides, it was bloody fragile then as well, and the team might have asked him to bring it home in the points ya dig? I will still doubt that Kimi plays percentages because the way I see it, I sometimes WISH he'd slow down a bit and maybe the car won't break. IF he were playing percentages, I'd certainly want him to push a bit more. But I don't, because he isn't. Anyways, Alonso was outclassed much of last year by Trulli and I felt that he'd lost the plot in 04. Sure is nice that he's bucked up now, but he needs to temper his hotheadness with intelligence. Like I said, bollocks without brains is no use. I'm sure u can appreciate this point yourself? Razz

Gedanken SG

Kimi/Pizza was Spain 03.

So should and should not only applies to track marshalls and not drivers? Razz

Under normal circumstances, there's no overtaking at Monaco. However, the opening may be there when the guy ahead is in trouble like JPM was - Kimi had to be there to take advantage of it but he was too busy playing the percentages.

Now, look at Nurburgring - Kimi and McLaren both said that Kimi's a key player in the decision making process. But you're saying when he makes a bad call, it's the team asking him to bring the points home? Pretty convenient excuse, isn't that?

One thing's for sure, Mclaren have lost their ability to make cars that will go the distance. Since the beryllium ban, Macs have only either been fast and unreliable or slow and unreliable. In light of this, Raikonnen needs to make hay while the sun shines, like in Hungary. If he'd done more of that in '03, he would have stood a bloody good chance of becoming WDC.

By the same measure, I'll agree with you about Alonso last year - after '03, '04 was pretty lame. Certainly Alonso could do without anymore Canada '05's.

It's actually looking a bit like Senna/Prost. Senna needed more of Prost's style of judgement, and Prost needed Senna's aggressiveness. Switch Alonso with Senna and Kimi with Prost, and we might just have a real WDC fight for the next couple of years.

[email protected] SG

ged ged... when i talk about should and shouldnots i mean there is no point talking about who should have won this race or that. What's won's won, whats lost's lost, no point talking about the shoulds where the WDC is concerned.

anyhows, i suppose, if u could combine senna and prost into one, u'd get the ultimate racing driver. And i suppose kimi and alonso combined would be the same too. but u know what's scary? There IS one such driver who seems to be a almost perfect combination of senna + prost, or kimi + alonso. Thats the red baron himself. his only archilles heel is in a wheel to wheel fight.

u know what tho? I still haven't seen kimi and alonso duke it out on the track side by side. screw the 05 rules. Confused

Gedanken SG

Ah, there we go, Heng. So let's stay away from shoulds and shouldn'ts altogether and not go down the "Alonso shouldn't be b!tching" path, eh? If Alonso wants to whinge, recite poetry or sing an aria while he's driving, it's of no consequence. Razz Mr. Green

Like I said in an earlier post, MS is one of the last few who raced with the old guard, but I don't think that means that he's close to being as good as either Prost or Senna - even in 1993 Senna was driving around MS' much-feared chop, in the wet no less, like he didn't even notice it.

That said, MS is arguably the best out there, which really doesn't say much about the quality of the current drivers compared to those of the early 90's. Let's face it - these days you get to see more exciting wheel-to-wheel racing in even Formula Ford.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not blaming the drivers. The fact is the current formula's an absolute abortion and Max Mosley ought to be strung up by what little evidence of balls he has.

I've said it for years, and I'll say it again: shrink the wings, bring slicks back, put a proper manual transmission back in, drop all the Radio Shack crap, sacrifice a virgin to a volcano and let's have some real racing again. Mr. Green

[email protected] SG

I do wonder, is it not possible to go back to having wheel to wheel racing without demoting F1 cars to the level of go-karts? We got lots of wheel to wheel in the turbo era u know. who can forget Rene Arnoux n Giles V's non-stop wheel banging for the last few laps of the Dijon 79 GP?

Gedanken SG

Hot damn, now we're talking - there's no school like the old school. Not only GV/Arnoux, but Mansell/Piquet and Senna/Prost gave us some damn good racing.

Things were good till about the end of 1992. Hell, the way it looks, it all started going downhill when semi-auto gearboxes came in. John Barnard has a lot to answer for. :X

siaokao SG

I'm not sure how many ppl been to race school here. The 1st thing the instructor teaches u is to finish races.. if you cannot even finish.. dun tok abt winning. You need to learn how to nurse ur brakes.. tyres, clutches, engine, transmission.. even suspension. Your driving style and techniques are all formulated to ensure your car last the race and then learn how to win it.

take rally for instance.. if you cannot "take care" of your car.. wats the point if you toping the 1st few SS.. then car distroyed.. cannot finish the balance SS?

So, a real racer will understand this simple formula.. DNF=Loser

"win or bust" mindset=gambler >< racer

Cheers.. Wink

Gedanken SG

Depending upon your objective, siaokao, Heng may either be the best or worst person to talk to about race school. Mr. Green

In any case, it's understood that, as I said in another thread, that to finish first, first you have to finish. We're talking about the qualities of being a driver and a racer as two distinct and separate qualities, but any successful racing driver will need to have both qualities to some extent.

iveco SG

Even FIA recognised that the real winners are consistent finishers, hence they decided to reward the top 8 positions (up from 6) beginning from the 2002 season onwards.

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