Out of curiosity (II)

last SG · 2006-01-30T22:28:16+00:00

Ndmmxiaomayi is not the falme thrower. Dear iveco, I think you have got wrong who started the "flame war". Do not insult someone without knowing the facts, e...

fymk SG

Yes , maybe opening the topic in another forum may be a bad idea. That may be a bad judgement on my part I admit.

However I didn't start with flaming - check what I said in the first post of Just out of curiosity . I only asked - take a look for yourself . The first post was asking about the qualifications . And I was accused of being a clone . Naturally the human thing to do is to answer back .

I bear my own consequences . Yes I admit I might not be right always. However I don't see the person involved even giving an answer like that. That infuriates me .

It is because of people like these, I see patients delay treatment and one died on me - read what I said in the topic which the moderator has closed . If I can do my part by questioning them and maybe getting a huge disclaimer across which is a fairly easy thing to do for thinkdifferent to type out will do but instead she has chosen to prove how knowledgeable she is instead of trying to put a disclaimer out there as a sticky asap.

ndmmxiaomayi SG

Originally posted by fymk:
This is good . Gazelle , two wrongs don't make a right . You know that don't you? You complained that what stays in one forum should really stay in that forum when thinkdifferent locked it down . Then you re-open it here . Don't suppose you are going to shut the thread when I come in and debate against your favor ?
So what is right and what is wrong?

Good for you fudgester , combat medic specialist means you have some training and that counts for something. You have practical experience assessing and evaluating people , not just reading from the medical book when you are a child or asking mommy for professional advice . And besides you have authorisation from the army to perform your practice on military personnel. It can be akin to registration of healthcare and medical professions .

mystiv , now I said fair is fair- read a little closer at what I said in other topic , I did say that some of them maybe healthcare professionals or even med/healthcare students , judging from their answers but thinkdifferent is not from what she has said in Just out of curiosity PART 1. [b] The other point being that no one in SAF or Aunt agony actually did imply they are qualified personnel , unlike this one. She is implying she is qualified to give answers when she is not - check the definition of a quack . And if the other moderators are truly qualified - it is a judgement issue for them .

I posed the question to thinkdifferent about her background and she didn't even say anything about practice at all except she asked doctor mommy a question and she won awards for hippotherapy when she was 16.

SAF Forum - that can be NS men - they are part of the SAF ( Singapore Armed Forces)
Aunt Agony - everyone knows that it is usually a gossip does he love me or not type of column

Like ShrodingersCat said , key issue - disclaimer.

key issue is safety . Why shouldn't I as the public be concerned ? Virtual clinic is implying a qualified medical doctor is assisting in enquiries - that makes it a legal issue .

ndmmxiaomayi - you really know how to flame a person despite saying that you are neutral . Does that make me any worse than you? Not really. I was just highlighting facts.

http://www.jmir.org/2000/3/e17/

Read it and see what I mean .Read the last line then. Thinkdifferent , I think u also better read it. That comes from good ole USA - lawyer country . You did say you work for the legal side right , thinkdifferent? You should know this then.

Anyways any doctor worth his salt would just say ok fine , u have this problem - come in and see me .

Go ahead and call me an idiot . After all , I am the one registered and I am not putting anyone in danger . I am the one who says you should at least put a disclaimer as well as refer others to reputable websites written by REGISTERED AND QUALIFIED PROFESSIONALS WHO CAN PUT THEIR NAMES AND QUALIFICATIONS AS WELL AS RISK THEIR REPUTATIONS ( instead of just a "secret" - isn't that funny that one is so secretive about their profession ? ) , or ask them to see a doctor if you are not registered.

If any of you have any more comments, I am always happy to entertain them .
[/b]

Firstly, while I am neutral most of the time, if one goes overboard, I will flame. You have seriously gone overboard, and this results in me flaming you. If you find back most of my threads, I do have a neutral post. Except when I start meeting people like you, amicute and Salman. Whether or not I am worse than you, it's up to you to decide. In fact, I just feel that I am as bad as you.

Now, I am seriously saying one thing: I am now flaming you.

Point by point I shall rebut you.

First point about Gazelle re-opening this thread. Two wrongs definitely don't make a right, and so do you. Gazelle didn't re-open this thread, it's you who started this thread right in another forum which thinkdifferent visits. Since it's locked, why do you start another one in the first place? And mind you, do you know the meaning of quack doctors? I don't and I won't bother to find out. I just know that quack doctors harms people.

Second point about fudgester being a combat medical specialist. While he is definitely experienced in this area, but he still refers the NS men to doctors. He doesn't diagnose them, he only suspects what is wrong, write a report and submit to the doctors. The doctors will then do a proper diagnosis. If he doesn't know much about medical field, can he do this? Practical experience although counts, knowledge still counts. Without knowledge, he can't do so.

Third point about thinkdifferent's background. May I ask you one question? Do you know what is privacy? She has a right not to say. In fact, I will not say if I were her. I have my rights, you have your rights. I shall not elaborate more on this point. It is very clear.

Fouth point about SAF and Aunt Agony forum. They may not be professionals, but so? They have their own experience to share, so that the future generations don't commit the same mistake. For Aunt Agony forum, it is not for gossip and those romance things. Please go and read through them. Most people do post serious advice.

About the disclaimer. If you had any ideas how busy doctors are, please wait. I believe they want to come up with a perfect disclaimer so that you have nothing to say.

The last point about calling you an idiot. If you don't mind, I shall call you that. Cool

ndmmxiaomayi SG

Hey, I didn't accuse you of being a clone. I say I THINK that you are clone. I didn't accuse you. That's what I want to say. Thinking and blantantly accusing is different. Go read up on the law book. In fact, I recommend that you read detective books. They will show you the difference. Just like charging a person of a crime and arresting him for a crime is very different.

mystiv SG

Seriously, a disclaimer solves it all. I have a feeling both of you, fymk and mayi, are getting a little emotional here. Getting into things like 'accuse vs think' wouldnt solve the problem at all.

Other than a disclaimer, it would be good if the moderators here can post their qualifications. A disclaimer and qualifications thread would pretty much prevent most arguements in this forum. While i understand the need for privacy, i dont think its too much to ask for qualifications.

Another thing; i dont agree with the act of locking up topics before issues are resolved. By locking up the topic, there is an implication of the moderator being unable to answer, and just wanna escape from the question. Not that extreme in this case, of couse, but im just pointing out. Solve the issue properly before locking it. Unless, of course, its idiots who post things like 'I love sex' or something

ndmmxiaomayi SG

Qualifications can be faked. I can easily faked mine with photoshop.

About the disclaimer: Seriously, if the moderators disappeared one by one, no one can put it up.

Locking up doesn't mean one cannot answer. It can also mean one doesn't want to continue with the argument. If one idiot decides to start another same thread after thread is closed, I have nothing to say. I will just start flaming. Like what I did in amicute's thread about Singaporean Chinese.

There's a limit in one's tolerance, going overboard and want to test them to see their reaction, one seriously need to see a psycologist.

mystiv SG

We know, but something is better than nothing. It's all based on intergrity. Of course, the moderators have to back it up with proper knowledge

ndmmxiaomayi SG

I would rather they not put up their qualifications. This will bring about another arguement whether the qualifications is real.

Like what your signature, is it doing the things right or doing the right things? A question to ponder over.

fudgester SG

fymk,

I think you misunderstood what I was talking about. For starters, I do agree with you that there out to be disclaimers here or something. We need to remind people that whatever medical advice gets posted here are not used in lieu of a proper medical evaluation. If you're sick, by all means go and find out more about your illness, but you should still see the doctor.

However, I absolutely disagree with your usage of the word 'quacks'. I don't understand... how does their sharing of the medical information they have with others make them quacks? While you and I both may have formal medical training, bear in mind that we're both not qualified to make our own diagnoses. If I were to make a diagnosis and the guy gets worse, I'll be in deep trouble. I can only make my own field evaluations and patch the guy up enough for the medical officers to do a full evaluation. I imagine that the same goes for you.

In that respect, we're not much different from the other forummites who may not have formal medical training.

However, I don't see what's wrong with their sharing of information which they get from trusted sources and personal experience. What's wrong with a forummite who shares what he knows about (for example) colorectal cancer from the experience of his grandfather who has it? Just because he doesn't have formal training doesn't make him a quack.

For your information, half of what I know about first aid and medicine are lessons which I got from field experience. I didn't learn everything I know in the classroom. So if you say that the other forummites are quacks, then I suppose I'm one as well for sharing my field experiences.

I would like to kindly suggest that you take back what you said about quacks.

LazerLordz SG

You could always get the Mods to place a disclaimer in a sensible tone and with proper explanation of your stand, instead of trying to go on a bombing run.And then you feign surprise when they launch counter-attacks, purely because you did not show some form of moderation in behavior and you expect them to believe at first instance.

A doctor ranting to a patient about his case will NOT make the patient any closer to listening to qualified advice.If you had made your point nicely and backed it up, they would be quite happy to rectify that oversight.You cannot expect people to silently take things do you?

Yes, medical advice might be misconstrued by individuals, and "first do no harm" also lives side by side with "buyer beware".So there..The chaps here have done us all a favor, and I'm sure their intentions are not out to hurt anyone.

LazerLordz SG

Well,qualifications are but just one aspect.

Fymk,

Let's say I have done a lot of serious reading about the rise of Islamism in the European Union, I can certainly hold a serious discussion about this issue and write a paper about my views.

I might not hold a degree in Middle East or European Studies, but does that stop me from being a relative expert in this issue?But I don't expect nations to look at what I discuss and formulate policy too right?

it's about what you do with the information given to you.Please do not threaten KM and LO with senseless argy-bargy, especially after the issue has been solved.

ndmmxiaomayi SG

I agree with you, LazerLordz. Wink

thinkdifferent SG

1. I'm not a qualified doctor and my position in this forum is not the one of a doctor, I am just the assistant to the two QUALIFIED DOCTORS here.

I answer the questions, explain and discuss them when none of the doctors is here to do so. I don't order anything and I usually tell the forumer to see the doc anyway.

2. Though my knowledge isn't as deep as of a doctor, I have enough knowledge to discuss medical issues in this forum. In a case of me being not sure about something, I consult the doctor in my family and I don't think this is something wrong or proves my incompetence. Even experienced doctors consult each other. What I post is supervised by the two doctors.

This isn't a place to look for a cure, this is place for discussing medical questions, one doesn't have to be a doctor to discuss medical questions. As I said, there are two qualified doctors to answer the serious questions and to clear the doubts of the forumers, but still tell them to visit a doc and advise then which check ups or procedures they should ask the doc to do.

3. I said more times that we will put up a disclaimer when the other mods are back - we need to discuss about the right disclaimer all together. I have no idea when they will be back, but once they are here, the disclaimer comes.
We can also state our qualification and hope nobody will question them. If anyone has some idea what else we should put up or write to prevent the forumers of not seeing a doc and relying on the internet only, feel free to express your idea.

4. I haven't locked the previous thread because I can't answer the angry words of fymk nor because it would put bad light on me (I absolutely don't think it puts bad light on me, I haven't done anything bad nor wrong.) I haven't censored nor altered anything she wrote.
I have locked it because fymk would keep on arguing and I see no sense in it , I don't wish to argue. I gave her enough space to express herself in this forum before locking her thread. I have already explained the things about which fymk is still excited so I see no sense in a further argument.
I will lock even this thread if the argument goes on.

5. If anyone thinks that it's better when I resign in this forum, the person should express it and I will consider it and suggest it to the other mods.

6. fymk, it's not my fault nor the fault of the mods here or this forum that the patient you have mentioned has died, we tell the forumers to see a doc anyway

Besides, anyone can look up on some info on the medical internet sites, read them and follow what is written there instead of visiting a doctor. Do you want to forbid also internet sites with medical content?

I have a huge headache and feel dead tired. I really have enough of arguing, justifying and explaining. I'm not in a court.

As I said, if anyone thinks I should resing, say so.

If fymk stops to argue only if you all agree with her and send me to hell, please do agree with her and send me the unqualified quack to hell.

ndmmxiaomayi SG

Time to rest. You know yourself well, don't need me to remind you, right? Wink

Don't overtire yourself. Not worth it. Be the champion that the world knows and I know. Very Happy

I don't want to see the history repeats itself. By the way, I will pm you on oxford's email. He's currently not online. You can email though. Remember to tell him you are thinkdifferent. He's a very careful man. Unknown people blocked. Wink

My vote: Please don't resign.

LazerLordz SG

I vote for thinkdifferent to stay.

fymk SG

Actually you have can put one up right now. Stickys are easy to do . And since you did say you worked on a legal side - what's wrong with the following wordings :

TITLE : DISCLAIMER

" This forum is only used for discussions about health and not accredited to give a diagnosis via the internet. It bears no responsibility for those who takes its advice seriously . Please go and see a doctor if you have an actual medical/health problem "

I am sure the other moderators won't mind at all unless they intended to use this forum as a real virtual clinic . This disclaimer should adequately cover their legalities.

Maybe thinkdifferent, you should read what I said . I didn't ask for you to resign . Don't get so dramatic .

I said maybe you should refer people to websites which are reputable like Mayo Clinic , or just tell them to see a doctor with their complaints IF none of your moderators , who presumably is qualified, is available to answer. As for information - if you say who your mom is and your award winning essay - then I am very sure that you are able to back it up with what medically peer reviewed journals have said .

As for the quack name because you have gave me a reason enough to by telling me that you read books of medical knowledge when you were a child etc etc and therefore implying that you can give advice way beyond the scope of a layman . And it is well within reason.

Yes qualifications can be faked . Hey do you know that you can check a doctor's credentials online? If anyone wants to impersonate a doctor , I am sure there are heavy penalties imposed by legislation .

fymk SG

Is it going to hurt anyone when you talk about the rise of Islam in European Union? Well , you just have to make sure your facts are right or else a muslim may just hammer you back with the facts. But that doesn't hurt , does it?

People will be people and there will always be someone who will take what could be a wrongly dispensed medical advice seriously .Why? For reasons unknown or maybe the person is suffering from some incurable disease and in denial about it . Who knows? There could be smart people reading and very naive people reading - who is going to say who is not behind the computer?

I am not threatening . I am putting forth 2 pointers for their own good and the good of others . If oxford mushroom, alfagal and renorenal wants to put advice - it is their call and their registration if they are willing to risk it , presumably they are registered at all . They would know about conducts and ethics of the medical profession if advice is given wrongly and some naive person really get harmed by the advice.

The Good Samaritan Act only covers when a person is in iminent danger and cpr is required and maybe ACLs when there is no other people or places nearby to help but he dies - it covers the medical / healthcare professional within the limit he can practice. After that - open house on a law suit .

It certainly does not cover them from law suits ( yes , there are people who do that) until their disclaimer comes up.

If I wanted to make trouble for them , I would not even say anything about a disclaimer. I won't even bother putting forth explanations. And I won't certainly be bothered telling thinkdifferent to refer people to reputable websites, use medical journals at all or maybe just tell people to visit the doctors and ask .

I could have sit back and done nothing at all and laugh at some of them until one day someone puts up the fact that something DID went wrong and then I will tell them to complain to MOH . That could be worse for the poor well meaning and qualified moderators .

It is all in fairness I asked for the purpose of clarifying something and all I got was answers which are beyond belief . Being human , of course, with nothing to restrain me online , I say what I think directly .

fymk SG

Renorenal may have had good intentions for the forum but :

"During consultation " that is already the implying that a person is qualified enough to hold a virtual clinic and make a diagnosis or a differential one .

No offence to renorenal but all doctors worth their salt will see the patient before making a diagnosis. Instead of requiring just those information . There are familiar history , medical history , physical assessment , medication history ( I am sure that you would know certain drugs are suspected of causing cardiomyopathy like clonzapine in caucasians ), tests to confirm .

For example , I am 26 year old female and I have beta thalassaemia minor but yet I am not anaemic with a high red blood cell count . What does it tell you? Nothing at all . I could have polycythaemia vera (rare for my age) or dehydration but you don't know what is my family history neither do I . And if I am a layman , I won't be aware which components of the rbc high or low as well ( i.e. erythrocyte count , reticulocytes count , MCHV , MCV etc) . I could be a silent alcoholic as well or maybe I have a heart condition or maybe just a rare condition ? Who knows?

That is why the forum is open to legal attacks until a disclaimer comes up .

Gedanken SG

Lordz, for most part I agree with you as usual, but this point's muddying the waters.

I don't agree with the example you provide because people are unlikely to act upon it. However, let's go along with it for the moment. Supposing you put forward an argument that concludes that certain factions of the Muslim community are prone to terrorist recruitment, and some reader comes along and burns down one of their mosques on the basis of what he's read in your posts. Even if you are not tracked down and charged for sedition or inciting racial violence, you'll know that your seemingly innocent comments have led to a tragic result.

The same applies here, only with a greater degree of likelihood. Even without the research evidence fymk provided, think about common experience: it's common for one person to tell another "don't worry about it, it's normal", and the other person ignores a problem upon the advice of an unqualified source because he or she prefers to live in blissful ignorance. The same, of course, applies to hypochondriacs - they'll go with the advice that best fits their world view.

Also, qualification is a major issue. Of course, one cannot dispute that "buyer beware" is an assumption in most situations, but does the buyer know what to be wary of? In my experience, the buyer does not; I've lost count of the number of times someone has told me, "My counsellor turned up at my house one night uninvited", or something of the sort, and they're surprised when I ask them if they've discussed the issue with the Psychologists' Registration Board because they don't even know the Board exists!

How many lay persons are aware of what recourse they have if something goes wrong? Very few, I'll wager. As such, "buyer beware" is not a strong defence in any sense.

The greatest irony here is that it's the professionals who best understand these problems, when the people receiving the services are the ones most in need of such knowledge. I've had people PM me about someone whose description fits the DSM-IV criteria for some illness or other, but I make a point not to label it because I'd be overstepping my professional bounds. Instead, I refer them to someone suitably qualified like a psychiatrist or clinical psychologist, and provide my views on the points that need to be emphasised when describing the person. Of course, when I do that, I almost invariably get the objection, "But you're a psychologist, right?", because they don't know the difference between the various fields of psychology. Sure, I've got the textbook stuff down pat, but my practical experience is in a corporate environment, not a clinical one, so any diagnosis or opinion I provide isn't worth the breath I take to utter it. It's plain and simple: there's no room for ego when it comes to people's health and well-being. If you don't know, you don't know - don't pretend because you're potentially opening a Pandora's Box.

Insipid afterthought: I take it that mayi was being facetious about Photoshopping qualifications. If you are professionally qualified, there will have to be a regulatory body who will affirm your credentials.

fymk SG

Maybe you should read in detail about what I said.

If there is not much difference from other forumnites who may not have formal medical training - then why even bother with registration of medical personnel? If healthcare training is so passe- why even bother with registration of healthcare professionals?

I did say something about support groups - they do share something in common - the suffering of a similar disease - they however will keep within the scope of their afflicted disease. Am I going to argue with a longterm renal patient - HELL NO - they sometimes do know their conditions very well - even more so than the doctors or nurses sometimes- bad days good days etc .

Either I could have misunderstood that but the way it was put forward- she gave me an impression that she hijacked renorenal's answer ( to be fair reno gives sound answers) and posed it as her own when she told the other forumner to post the link to it.

Do you know what a quack is? A person who passes off as a knowledgeable medical practitioner - but then again nowadays we have people passing off as nurses , psychologists , dietitians etc . They come under the collective word of "quack" when they are not registered to even practice. Unless she is registered as a healthcare professional , even an occupational therapist , social worker, physiotherapist , nurse - then I will take the naming of '' quack' back . She has not once given me a cause to take it back.

Combat medics are exempt from that word - they are in the field and they have some form of practical . They are employed and recognised by the army in a military sense - they are technically what I might say - registered with the army to practice within the army for the well being of the army . They have first aid skills and basic training to cope with traumatic situations and I do have a healthy respect for them . They are military paramedics , just like our own ambulance paramedics - trained to cope first line .

To say they are not any different than any forumnites who don't have practical training - it is wrong - we both know theory and practical comes across as different . I didn't say formal medical training - I did say practical healthcare training .

Fudgester : Sharing your experiences is ok because it iS YOUR OWN - it does not make u a quack because u did what u were trained to do with the authority and blessing of the army .

ndmmxiaomayi SG

Doesn't mean if the doctors see you physically they call tell all these that you have pointed out. All these are just theories. Besides it have been pointed out that it is advice, not diagnosis. The quote you got from renorenal, is what he wrote before he left the forum. That's when he was helping out everyday. Now, the word diagnosis is not correct, as he no longer feels so. That's why the forum description is changed to "A place for health doubts, not ultimate remedies Wink "

He understood something since someone flamed him. That's the reason that caused the change.

But if you choose to be dishonest about your medical history and all, the advices dish out here won't be of any use. He has already requested you to be honest. If you are alcoholic yet never reveal, that would affect the advice he gives out.

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