AWARE

last SG · 2009-04-18T22:00:24+00:00

the women's mag got write-up on josie lau one is which one huh?

Maggie.meepok SG

i haf got another one! = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2WelPBxTEo

Wow your video even better! Ring-side seat! Even better than mine. I could not see her face often when I was there was I was seated in the middle and the front has too many people. Cool video.

Fryderyk HPH SG

Here is the Dr Thio Su Mien one on "Respect Your Elders!" It gives a good view. I will see if I can find the "shut up and sit down" one by Sally Ng. My friend say both can make very nice tee-shirts, haha!

http://wayangparty.com/?tag=thio-su-mien

Thio that slut doesn't deserve to be respected. She was one of the key feminist mentor that dragged AWARE into the complex situation to cause such an uproar in the public.

Maggie.meepok SG

Thio that slut doesn't deserve to be respected. She was one of the key feminist mentor that dragged AWARE into the complex situation to cause such an uproar in the public.

Yeah, actually Dr Thio was the key player you know. I just feel it so weird that someone so well regarded in her profession, so experienced, so educated, so high ranking - can be so brainless when it comes to religious dogmas. Maybe smart people are also not that smart, haha.

Maggie.meepok SG

Hey these are cool! Maybe even better if there is caricature of Sally Ng's face saying these words in a word bubble. Better still, make one "Respect Your Elders" tee with Dr Thio's face. Sure sell one! So cool I will sure buy. If I not so lazy, I will make some money out of this. But can someone please do it? So I can wear this tee? Haha.

Maggie.meepok SG

I'm starting to think that that will be the local catchphrase of the year.

It certainly will be. Another one is Respect Your Elders!

Fryderyk HPH SG

She thinks she is some big shot that is why... Daughter/son in politics she think she in heaven already... This really brainless old hag no life think of stupid thing, best is just rot at old folks home can already...

Bangulzai SG

there is.

all at the website:

http://www.printeet.com/shop/

Gun SG

Don't forget that some of the 9/11 hijackers were very educated young men.

Religion extremism has a way to screw-up anyone's life or moderation, no matter how educated or smart one maybe.

sand king SG

I am unAWARE about whats going on, why is there so many old ladies on the news!?

Maggie.meepok SG

Don't forget that some of the 9/11 hijackers were very educated young men.

Religion extremism has a way to screw-up anyone's life or moderation, no matter how educated or smart one maybe.

Yes I guess you are right. It is not just the simple minded who are easily influenced. These days it is the educated ones even. My own theory is that all extremism comes from feeling oppressed - this may not be real oppression but just the feeling of being oppressed, the feeling that you have been wronged. Eg either the person feels he is too poor, feel or seen rich people oppress the poor , or have inferiority complex and want to feel powerful. My gauge all fear leads to anger which leads to hate which leads to extremism.

So I feel that the antidote to that is love and compassion. Because love and compassion promotes openess to why people are the way they are, promotes understanding, gives expansion to personality and worldview. When you are expand and grow in your personality and charactoer, you will fear less, be angry less often, hate less.

This is the essence of what Jesus, Buddha as well as yoga philosophy teach. We do have a choice.

Man that can't be moved SG

Agree that love will overcome many situation and down period.

One more thing sometime we also need to let go and forgive those who hurt us in this case we can move further. or else we'll be like the mouse trap in maze.

Let's move forward to life

ditzy SG

I really got to get one of those shut up and sit down t shirts.

Maggie.meepok SG

Agree that love will overcome many situation and down period.

One more thing sometime we also need to let go and forgive those who hurt us in this case we can move further. or else we'll be like the mouse trap in maze.

Let's move forward to life

True. So it applies to this Aware saga too. After this, both sides should take time to heal, just accept that they are different and move on to find common grounds.

Some people at the EOGM kept asking Josie Lau and exco about the amount spent and managed to force them to reveal the figure of $90,000. I know people were doing this coz J& company has been saying that they are elected according to the constituition, and they always refer to the constituition to back them up. So people are throwing this back at their face, they don't practise what they preach, since Aware's constituition does not allow the exco to spend more than $20,000 per month. They have to ask the general body (the rest of the members) for approval if they do.

I think J&cmpy needs to explain where they spend the money and why. I think to be fair to them, some of the expenses are not without validity. Eg, given the huge surge in membership, the anger, and the 2 different camps -they need to spend on a bigger venue, security officers, lawyers, auditors to witness and manage the voting process to prevent accusations of vote rigging. And there may not have been time to ask the rest of the members for approval (since possibly half of the members may be supporters of the old guard leaders, my guess is maybe they are afraid they will not get approval? not sure, just my guess). Certainly, they need not have engaged such an expensive lawyer firm (Rajah & Tan) or such an expensive auditing firm (Deloitte & Touche). There are so many smaller outfits they can turn too as the task at hand is quite simple, and the EOGM just needed objective parties on hand to interpret the constituition and ensure the voting process and votes are transparently managed by neutral party. It's kind of wasting money. But I think some of the expenses are needed to prevent violence and accusations on that day. Still, I think the EOGM should not cost more than half of $90,000. So they have some explaining to do.

Some people have called for J&cmpny to pay back the sum about $20,000. I personally feel that the old Aware exco that has retaken power should exercise discretion and graciousness when considering this. To go by the letter of the constituition would be behaving no differently from J&cmpy. But they also have to answer to the general body. So, if the expenses are valid and not unreasonable, even if it is above $20,000, they should recommend to the rest of Aware members to accept and approve this extra-ordinary expenditure. Afterall, this was an extra-ordinary event. For items that are not reasonable, then J&cmpny would have to be acountable for those items separately.

This is only a fair and gracious thing to do. Sometime we may have a right to do something, but it may not be wise to exercise our right.

Maggie.meepok SG

I really got to get one of those shut up and sit down t shirts.

me too! me too!

Worcer SG

So its back to the who used my money.Because its ur money their using thats y so many are angry?

Dont give them loh.Quit the damn society.Y nag nag nag about who anyhow use my money.

If they use more money,go earn more.

And quit the love and compassion theory.It doesnt work shit in this world if u got no money.

Its love and compassion that always starts war.Giving ppl excuses to tell the world they are right.

See wat all the so call non profit organization been profiting.Its bullshit to say help ppl and try to count every cents in ur pocket.Then say its a matter of principle!

Chin Eng SG

Ditto that! I so totally agree. You are one of few who understand the meaning or pro-gay, anti-gay or neutral positions.

i had a hard time explaining that to some of my church members.

from the secular standpoint, i am neither pro or anti-gay.... obviously from the biblical standpoint, i do have a take as to whether a Christian should be gay or not.

it is no different from, say, from a secular standpoint, you want to by 4D, go and buy lah, but if one is a Christian, one should abstain from gambling.

one of my pals in church keep going on about how connected Dr Thio is... i was like - so what? i have seen too many dr thios in church - those who think that their theology is the only theology.

one of them even asked me if i mind that my children attend those MOE/AWARE sessions. of course not! i say go an attend and be inform.... and come back and we will have a discussion. those who are afraid of such sessions are probably those who are so insecure about bringing up their kids that they are so afraid of their kids being influenced.... i say - if one's parenthood is strong enough, one need not be afraid at all.

Chin Eng SG

This is the essence of what Jesus, Buddha as well as yoga philosophy teach. We do have a choice.

i think extremism comes because of the sense of insecurity.... afraid that the world as they sees it will go away.

my take? if God wants the world to change, the world will change.

i hope that these group of "well-intentioned" Christian women will sit back and understand that God did not want them to be in the committee.... and that all such "well-intentioned" Christians in Singapore will know better than to take over a secular society.

Maggie.meepok SG

there is.

all at the website:

http://www.printeet.com/shop/

So nice! Thank you!

Maggie.meepok SG

i had a hard time explaining that to some of my church members.

from the secular standpoint, i am neither pro or anti-gay.... obviously from the biblical standpoint, i do have a take as to whether a Christian should be gay or not.

it is no different from, say, from a secular standpoint, you want to by 4D, go and buy lah, but if one is a Christian, one should abstain from gambling.

one of my pals in church keep going on about how connected Dr Thio is... i was like - so what? i have seen too many dr thios in church - those who think that their theology is the only theology.

Yes, I am a Christian too but I think that some Christians need to understand that not everyone subscribe to their world view. Some Buddhists for example (I do not speak for all Buddishts but base on what I read in 1 book) take a more compassionate and accepting view of homosexuality as they believe it is possible that a person may have lived many past lives as a woman and then suddenly he is a man this life and may have problems adjusting. While Christians may not adopt this reincarnation view, so too they should not force their view on others.

Yeah, my experience too is that there are a lot of Dr Thios in churches. I wonder why intelligent people can be so dogmatic. Actually, many such dogmas are positions held by extreme right fundamental churches in USA who tend to have a bigger influence on the Singapore Protestant churches. So it is not surprising to see these right wing positions.

However, people must realise that no culture or religion is clearly defined. So likewise, Christianity is not a monolithic whole - this means that it is not uniform everywhere. Eg not all Christians hold the same positions on issues such as homosexuality, capital punishment, ordaining of women.

There are left wing liberal churches in USA that accept homosexuality and ordain homosexual pastors. At first glance, it seems that these left wing churches are too liberal, take it too easy and have no moral stand (I was taught this by church leaders). But if you really know and understand their thinking and approach, you will come to value that it comes from a very loving, very rational and very scholarly position.

I highly, highly recommend reading books by Bishop John Selby Spong. He is married with grown kids and was the former past head of the American Episcopal church – which is the American Anglican church. Now, I know that many Asian and Africian Anglican churches disagree with their position on homosexuality. And I know that some of Bishop Spong positions can be very controversial and considered heresy by most Christians (eg he puts forward some scholar's postulation that Apostle Paul may be a closet homosexual base on a close study of this writings and abhorance of the same).

But I think it is worthy to read and see for yourself? What is the fear right? Then choose after reading. In his books, you will also find the perennial hard questions that many non-Christians ask. These are the same questions that Christians themselves ask but got no answers or just get stock answers that they know in their hearts they cannot accept. Some simple but common questions: Is this the God of Love that sends a death curse to the first born male of all the Egyptians to scare them into releasing the Jews? Isn’t this very cruel? What have the children done to deserve this? Why do God play favourites – in this case Jews over Egyptians? If the bible is the inerrant word of God (that means cannot be wrong one), then why is it that some Christians choose to accept the bible's position that homosexuality is wrong, but do not listen when the bible (more specifically Apostle Paul) says that women must cover their heads and remain quiet in in church? There are so many women church leaders (not necc head of church but bible study group leaders, speakers) - Dr Thio Su Mien one of them, haha! Also, in Leviticus chapter 20, the bible says that homosexuals should be put to death. Er...if Christians agree with the bible that homosexuality is a sin, does that mean Christians going to advocate death penalty too? ("If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them." Lev 20:13)

You will see that Bishop Spong was himself born and raised in the deep south, in a right wing conservative Christian environment. He has served the church since a young man (he should be 70 plus now) but over the years he has seen so much injustice done, all “in the name of God or the bible” that he started asking the same questions himself. He wrote his books not to destroy Christianity but in the hope that it can be what it was meant to be.

The 2 books that I recommend are : 1) Why Christianity Must Change or Die, and 2)The Sins of The Scripture: Exposing the Bible’s Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love.

I, for one, am so glad the books were ever written. I felt validated that I am not alone. In church, whenever I ask what I believe are common sense questions, I either get no answers or simply brushed off and told just to accept base on faith as the bible is the word of God. I felt so "huh?" Reading Pastor Spong’s books, I felt so validated that that I was not crazy to ask those questions. I realise that being a Christian can mean more than the right wing position I have seen thus far, and that I have a choice and still remain a Christian.

I just share with you in case you want to read more about the liberal Christian stance - just to broaden perspective. But only if you choose to, I am not pushing the envelope just because I am a liberal myself, so please don't be offended by what I quoted from the bible.Thanks!

dumbdumb! SG

christianity may change in its form (traditional to charismatic), but not its values. because God's values don't change

and God's values are: He loves all of us, but His holy nature cannot accept sins.

If He can tolerate sins, then He isn't a holy God.

i was discussing this with a forumite, my position is this: God gives us all free wills to live for Him or live for ourselves. The way I see it, homosexuality is as grave as any other sins, like lying, stealing, or watching porn, so I don't think it's right to view homosexuality as a "graver" sin. And sin simply means an act of rebellion against God's value system. Whether it's pride, lust, envy, whatever.

I won't infringe in your right to live your life, but I cannot agree that the lifestyle is righteous and something which God approves. But I believe Jesus died for that sin and paid for it fully with His blood, just like He died for the sins of a liar, thief, or adulteror.

And just as I would encourage a liar to stop lying to give glory to God, a thief to stop stealing to give glory to God, and an adulteror to stop visiting prostitutes to give glory to God, I will also encourage a homosexual to repent and seek after God and recognise that the life he leads is an act of rebellion against God, no matter how you sugarcoat it.

But nothing changes the fact that God loves all of us, as who we are. That value doesn't change in my eyes. But that love also means that He won't want us to remain as who we are, because of the consequences that only He knows will happen if we continue to sin.

and just a point to note: i hate christians who go around with their hate messages like "God hates homosexuals". That's total BS imo.

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