Is there difference between samantha, vipassana, pureland?

2009novice SG

Hi my buddhist friends,

Actually, I wanted to continue to post in Realization's thread: http://sgforums.com/forums/2954/topics/444652 but afraid that it might go off topic and so I started a new one.

I was still quite confused between samantha and vipassana meditation... why is there a difference...? And also, is nianfo considered samantha method...?

To begin with, I googled on samantha method 1st

http://www.knowbuddhism.info/2009/02/what-is-samatha-in-meditation.html

Samatha is concerned with the concentration of one’s mind on a suitable meditation object in order to prevent the mind from wandering about.

this means there's is a "object" to concentrate on. I thought, can nianfo considered as samantha too...? since we focus on Amituofo sheng hao, can it be an object too..?

1 - Mindfulness of Amituofo can it be samantha meditation?

Next....

2 - Can samantha and vipassana reach the same goal? Liberation?

but what I got from another website is this...

http://www.buddhanet.net/vmed_1.htm

One is Samatha meditation; the other is Vipassana meditation. Samatha here means concentration. Vipassana here means insight or experiential knowledge of bodily and mental phenomena. Of these two types of mental training Samatha meditation is practised to attain higher concentration of the mind, peaceful and blissful living and the cessation of suffering. Vipassana meditation is practised to attain not only deep concentration of the mind but also liberation from all kinds of mental and physical dukkha or suffering, through realisation of our body-mind processes and their true nature.

As I explained to you, Samatha meditation is practised to attain higher concentration of the mind. So when you practise Samatha meditation, the first type of mental training or mental culture, you have to concentrate your mind on a single object of meditation. You want to concentrate your mind on a single object very deeply. That object may be a concept or observed reality, but most Samatha meditative objects are concepts. There are also a few objects which are observed reality as the object of meditation in the first type of training and Samatha meditation. But whatever the object may be the aim of Samatha meditation is to obtain deep concentration of the mind, or the higher concentration of the mind.

So you have to take a single object and focus your mind on it. When you focus your mind on this object gradually the mind will be concentrated on it very deeply. But in the beginning of the practise your mind may go out or wander. Your mind doesn't stay with the object always. Sometimes it just goes out and thinks about something else. It wanders and goes astray. Then you have to bring the mind to the object and focus it on that object again and again. Whenever the mind goes out you bring it back and focus it on the object of meditation. In this way your mind gradually becomes concentrated well on the object of meditation.

As you have practised it for some days or months the concentration becomes better and better, deeper and deeper. Finally the mind is absolutely concentrated on the object of meditation as its absorbed into the object of meditation. Such a state of mind which is absorbed into the object of meditation is called jhana, or apana in Pali. Jhana means 'fixed as', or absorption. When the mind is totally fixed to the object of meditation it's called jhana, fixed mind. And also it is called absorption, apana.

Jnana has four stage, or five stages, in accordance with the teaching of the Buddha. So, the second stage of jhana concentration becomes better than the first. Then the third stage, the concentration better than the second. So with the fourth. As long as the mind is deeply concentrated on the object of meditation its free from all mental impurities such as desire, greed, lust, hatred, anger, ignorance, and jealousy. Because there are no impurities in the mind which is absorbed into the object of meditation you feel happy and peaceful, and calm and tranquil. Tranquillity, serenity and calmness is the result of Samatha meditation.

But in ancient times there were some devotees who practised Samatha meditation with a view to obtaining supernormal powers such as clairvoyance and clairaudience. These supernormal powers can be attained based on all the four jnanas, of the four stages. When a meditator is skilled in entering any stage of jnana he can then proceed with his meditation in order to attain psychical or supernormal powers. But though he may be able to attain them through the four stages of jnana, concentration, he is not able to rightly understand the intrinsic nature of mental and physical phenomena. He is not able to destroy any mental defilement because the purpose of Samatha meditation is to obtain deep higher concentration of the mind and psychical or supernormal powers. Because he is not able to uproot any of the mental defilements such as anger, hatred, desire, and craving, he cannot get free from all kinds of suffering, mental or physical, because these mental defilements are the causes of the suffering, dukkha. As long as one can uproot or exterminate these mental defilements, mental impurities, he is subject to suffering, dukkha.

The aim of Vipassana meditation is to free oneself from all kinds of dukkha, mental suffering and physical suffering, through realisation of the body-mind processes and their true nature. So if you are able to realise mental and physical phenomena as they really are you can do away with all kinds of mental impurities or mental defilements which arise dependent on misunderstanding or ignorance of mental and physical phenomena and their true nature. That's why we have to practise Satipatthana Vipassana meditation, insight meditation.

I continued to search but I found another from Wikipedia (sorry Wiki is just stepping stone) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi

Samatha/samādhi meditation and vipassana/insight meditation are the two wheels of the chariot of the noble eightfold path and the Buddha strongly recommended developing them both

http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=4700

here's another forum for additional information :)

Dawnfirstlight SG

Hi Novice, I think the answers are below which I copied from the article that Relization had posted. Samatha & Vipassana are efforts of total self-reliance whereas Pureland practice (Amituofo recitation) allows the Buddha's merits and blessings to overflow us and with Amituofo's vow, we are able to secure a good rebirth in Pureland. However, nianfo can be considered as Samantha too. We can practice both as they do not obstruct one another.

The above does not imply that Samatha or Vipassana meditation is ineffective on the deathbed, but that the Pureland method is relatively easier to practise for the average person. In fact, when Samatha or Vipassana meditation is practised well in everyday life, this aids practice of the Pureland method. Likewise, when the Pureland method is practised well in everyday life, this aids practice of Samatha or Vipassana meditation. The effects of concentration and insight, which are usually associated with Samatha and Vipassana meditation respectively can also be realised when one practises the Pureland method well. Generally, when one practises different methods well, they should foster, and not contradict or obstruct one another. This is because they are all methods leading towards liberation.

2009novice SG

Hi Dawn,

actually I aspired to go Pure Land already :)

but while im still "here", I will also learn as much as i can... if best be a stream-enterer, if not sheng wen, anything that i can grab on not to fall on evil paths.

but, nianfo is samantha method right...? The point is- only vipassana can uproot the mental defilements (i copied from buddhanet) while samantha focus on your concentration.

I thought, if nianfo would lead to realization, that would be best of both world... practising Pure Land and insight realization as well lol

Dawnfirstlight SG

Hi Dawn,

actually I aspired to go Pure Land already :)

but while im still "here", I will also learn as much as i can... if best be a stream-enterer, if not sheng wen, anything that i can grab on not to fall on evil paths.

but, nianfo is samantha method right...? The point is- only vipassana can uproot the mental defilements (i copied from buddhanet) while samantha focus on your concentration.

I thought, if nianfo would lead to realization, that would be best of both world... practising Pure Land and insight realization as well lol

有相念佛can never lead to realization. Ha ha...... must 一门深入, can't have too many "doors". However, Samantha method can help us to recite Amituofo without getting disrupted easily.

2009novice SG

有相念佛can never lead to realization. Ha ha...... must 一门深入, can't have too many "doors". However, Samantha method can help us to recite Amituofo without getting disrupted easily.

yup i read it before which u posted it

Do anyone alternate between vipassana and samantha...?

By the way, there's also something I don't quite understand... vipassana also need a "object"... I mean like e.g. observing your abdomen rising up and down... or your breath.. inhale exhale... It's similar to samantha method... but it is said that vipassana can only leads to insight.

Dawnfirstlight SG

yup i read it before which u posted it

Do anyone alternate between vipassana and samantha...?

Vipassana meditation is an awareness meditation. It teaches to be aware of everything that comes to you and is happening to you. By keeping your mind on the object of meditation, you are able to develop concentration or one-pointedness of mind which is necessary for the penetrative knowledge into the true nature of mind and body to arise. Without concentration, this cannot happen. And in order to have concentration, you must first keep your mind focused on one object.

I'd learnt Samantha meditation but hesitate to learn Vipassana meditation as I still prefer "nianfo" dharma door （念佛法门）。

2009novice SG

I'd learnt Samantha meditation but hesitate to learn Vipassana meditation as I still prefer "nianfo" dharma door （念佛法门）。

Amituofo :)

hope you achieve "supernatural powers" soon.... Oops i mean calm and peace with you always

Dawnfirstlight SG

Amituofo :)

hope you achieve "supernatural powers" soon.... Oops i mean calm and peace with you always

Scare me! I thought what kind of supernatural powers you are talking about. I'll let you know when I become a "super woman"

Fcukpap SG

Dawn is a Wonder Woman….lol

sinweiy SG

to me, nianfo can also be Vipassana. like dawn said Vipassana meditation is an awareness meditation. Vipassana, which means to see things as they really are. Vipassana is a way of self-transformation through self-observation. To know an object during vipassana meditation means to experience it with bare, nonverbal awareness.

http://www.dhamma.org/en/vipassana.shtml

so while doing nianfo, observe the mind, be aware and see things as they are, then that's "Vipassana". Vipassana not necessary stereotype, must use breathing. even use breathing also need to observe the mind. both breathing and nianfo, without observation and just taming the mind from wandering is samantha/concentration. both if do it with observation, with experience to bare, nonverbal awareness is Vipassana.

if best be a stream-enterer, if not sheng wen, anything that i can grab on not to fall on evil paths.

if not?

sheng wen 声闻 generally mean "hearer". nothing to do with lower than stream enterer.

梵语s/ra^vaka，巴利语sa^vaka。音译舍罗婆迦。又意译作弟子。为二乘之一，三乘之一。指听闻佛陀声教而证悟之出家弟子。

http://baike.baidu.com/view/565882.htm

Shravaka or Śrāvaka (Sanskrit) or Sāvaka (Pāli) means "hearer" or, more generally, "disciple".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9Ar%C4%81vaka

sinweiy SG

Question II:

The Platform Sutra states:

Recitation with no thought of recitation is true; recitation while [grasping at the thought of] recitation is wrong.[31]

Thus, is not Buddha Recitation deviant and false?

Answer:

The meaning of No-Birth, No-Thought of Recitation has been discussed earlier, but I will give a direct explanation here. "No-Thought of Recitation" does not mean no Buddha or Sutra Recitation, but rather habitual recitation of the Buddha's name and the sutras with a completely empty mind, neither seeing nor grasping at the thought that we are the ones doing the reciting. This is called No-Thought of Recitation. On the other hand, though we may sit still and at peace, our minds completely empty, if we are still aware that we are sitting in meditation, this is still grasping at the thought of recitation.

If we think that No-Thought of Recitation is not to recite the Buddha's name or the sutras, not to lecture on the Dharma and not to reflect or meditate, then we have turned into wood and stone. While avoiding the error of grasping at forms, we have fallen into the error of grasping at emptiness -- thus going against the very meaning of the Platform Sutra. For this reason, the Sixth Patriarch continued:

He who is above "affirmative" and "negative" rides permanently in the white bullock cart (the vehicle of Buddha).

(Wong Mou-Lam, tr. "The Sutra of Hui Neng," p. 65. In The Diamond Sutra & The Sutra of Hui Neng.)

High-ranking monks of old often practiced Buddha Recitation seeking rebirth in the Pure Land, but they were not attached to the mark of Buddha Recitation or seeking rebirth. Therefore, they left behind this stanza:

To recite is the same as not to recite,

No-Birth is precisely birth,

Not bothering to move even half a step

The body has reached the city of Great Enlightenment.

However, we have spoken so far of the practice of exceptional individuals. Persons of limited or moderate capacities should strive to repeat the Buddha's name as many times as possible. While they may still have attachments and see themselves as reciting the Buddha's name earnestly seeking rebirth in the Pure Land, it is still a good thing. This is because by so doing, they will assuredly achieve rebirth in the Pure Land at the time of death and ultimately enter the realm of No-Recitation, No-Birth. Where is the worry? Otherwise, seeking a direct and lofty way without gauging their own limitations and grasping at the teachings of Emptiness while incapable of following the truth of No-Recitation -- yet unwilling to practice at the level of seeking rebirth in the Pure Land through Buddha Recitation -- in the end they achieve nothing. They just remain common mortals in the painful cycle of Birth and Death!

http://www.ymba.org/BWF/bwf0.htm

Dawnfirstlight SG

Question II:

The Platform Sutra states:

Recitation with no thought of recitation is true; recitation while [grasping at the thought of] recitation is wrong.[31]

Thus, is not Buddha Recitation deviant and false?

Answer:

He who is above "affirmative" and "negative" rides permanently in the white bullock cart (the vehicle of Buddha).

(Wong Mou-Lam, tr. "The Sutra of Hui Neng," p. 65. In The Diamond Sutra & The Sutra of Hui Neng.)

To recite is the same as not to recite,

No-Birth is precisely birth,

Not bothering to move even half a step

The body has reached the city of Great Enlightenment.

http://www.ymba.org/BWF/bwf0.htm

Thanks Sinweiy for sharing. I've a better understanding of Vipassana meditation now but I've problem in putting it into practice. I guess it is better for me to go for course and learn it from the Master. Is it that we must learn Samantha meditation before we go on to Vipassana and is Vipassana a step "higher" than Samantha?

sinweiy SG

Is it that we must learn Samantha meditation before we go on to Vipassana and is Vipassana a step "higher" than Samantha?

i think a bit depend on one's affinity. both have pro and con. Samantha is good for severing affiction/vexation while Vipassana is related to right view.

Wisdom vs concentration

In Shurangama sutra, Ananda reached 1st stage stream entry, but He study Mahayana. When Buddha preached Shurangama sutra about half way, Ananda was already Understand what the Buddha is talking about, so He praised the Buddha. Purnamaitreyaniputra, a 4th stage Arahat, saw Ananda's reaction, and was confused, how a stream entry could understand what Buddha said, but an arahat couldn't. Buddha explained, sentient being have 2 kind of obstruction. namely obstruction based on affliction (烦脑障 fan nao zhang/jian si 见思) and obstruction based on doubt (所知障suo zhi zhang). Ananda was heavy on affliction, so He did not reached 4th stage arahat. However Ananda was light on doubt, ie He can see things as they really are(Kan po看破). So Ananda had difficulty renoucing(fang xia放下) than Purna. Purna is directly opposite. Purna was light on affliction and heavy on doubt obstruction. So Purna could let go easily.

yet we said 戒定慧. discipline lead to concentration, concentration lead to wisdom. so does concentration really lead to wisdom? i read they are not two. within wisdom , there's some form of concentration. need more thinking....

止与观，止是止息一切妄念，观是观察一切真理。止属于定，观属于慧，止观就是指定慧双修。^[1]止息一切外境与妄念，而专注于特定对象，并生起正智慧以观一对象。又作寂照、明静。

止如明镜止水，观如明镜中水影现万象，止与观，实一体而不二。故称“止观不二”^[2]。

http://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E6%AD%A2%E8%A7%82

2009novice SG

oh... ic. Thx Sinweiy for the post.

That's what i initially thought, when vipassana also needs an "object" to focus on 1st... e.g. movement of the abdomen or breathing...

I was puzzled why a distinct difference in samantha and vipassana and I see Theravada and Mahayana have different interpretation to it now

sinweiy SG

i think a bit depend on one's affinity.

seem like i not the one who said need affinity/yuan.

http://sgforums.com/forums/1728/topics/440368?page=1

"but to come to the understanding of everything as awareness like the experience of ken wilber requires deep yuan.

because i also realised that even when one is deep into the practice of mindfulness, one need not experience our pristine awareness"

Aik TC SG

This is a good essay by Thanissaro Bhikku on what the Buddha teaches regarding Concentration and Mindfulness. One can see that Concentration and Insight meditation are interlinked, goes hand in hand and compliment each other.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/concmind.html

Dawnfirstlight SG

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/concmind.html

Thanks for sharing. I need to experience it myself how Concentration and Insight meditation are interlinked as I'd learnt Concentration meditation but not Insight meditation.