China says 400 million can't speak national language

laurence82 SG

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/china-says-400-million-cant-speak-national-language-104542822.html

What do you think?

Ee Hoe Hean Club SG

What about Singapore? Singapore national language is malay.

Ee Hoe Hean Club SG

Reporting from Beijing — In Guangzhou, the city formerly known as Canton, Chinese government banners hang in primary schools with instructions to use the country's official language, Mandarin, also known as Putonghua:

"Speak Putonghua, write standard Chinese, use civilized language, be a civilized person."

But residents of the city, the capital of one of China's proudest Cantonese-speaking regions, recently marched by the hundreds to protest a new government proposal to switch television broadcasts from the local dialect to Mandarin ahead of the multi-sport Asian Games scheduled for November in Guangzhou.

"Protect our mother tongue!" some Guangzhou residents shouted. "Get lost, Mandarin!"

On the same day, about 200 people marched in Hong Kong, where Cantonese is the official Chinese tongue, converging on government headquarters. A week earlier, nearly 1,000 people in Guangzhou had blocked a subway station to show their opposition to the proposed change in television broadcasts.

For years Cantonese speakers in southern China have complained that local culture is being eroded under orders from Beijing, where Mandarin dominates. The recent protests highlight a traditional rivalry between north and south as well as the government's efforts to bring the country under one language, local residents and experts say.

Cantonese — as the second most spoken dialect in China and until recently the language most common among Chinese living abroad — has long been a key part of Chinese culture.

Generations of Cantonese-speaking immigrants built America's first Chinatowns and introduced dim sum, chop suey and Bruce Lee (the martial artist and film star was born in San Francisco but mostly grew up in China).

As more Mandarin-speaking migrants from other parts of China move into Guangzhou and other Chinese communities across the world, Cantonese is becoming less prominent, analysts and experts say. And the government is speeding up the process, they say.

"Putonghua taking over local dialects is a movement we have seen for some time now," said Cheris Shun-ching Chan, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Hong Kong.

Students in Guangzhou have been penalized for speaking Cantonese, and teachers must pass a Mandarin proficiency exam. Many employers also check whether potential hires can speak Mandarin. Fewer than half of the 12 million people in the city speak Cantonese.

The two dialects feature significant differences. Cantonese has 59 vowel sounds, twice as many as Mandarin's 23. Cantonese also has nine tones, compared to Mandarin's four. For these reasons, Cantonese is considered by some as richer and more specific. Some linguists say that it's actually a wholly separate language and not just a dialect of Chinese.

"This conflict is about local language, but it is also about a form of political struggle," said Chan, emphasizing that national political power is concentrated in the north.

Some historians and many residents of Guangdong province say Cantonese was nearly adopted as the country's official language when the Republic of China was founded in 1912. Sun Yat-sen, the leader of China's Nationalist movement, was from Guangdong. The province, having been the only region open to trade with the West, was the country's most prosperous.

But eventually, after the communist revolution, standard Mandarin became China's national language.

According to state media, government authorities proposed using Mandarin for broadcasts of the Asian Games as a way to "forge a good language environment" and cater to non-Cantonese-speaking Chinese visitors to Guangzhou. News and primetime shows would also be in Mandarin.

Local residents worry that such a switch would punish older Guangzhou residents who have never learned Mandarin.

Chun Yunian, a graduate student at Sun Yat-sen University in Guangzhou, said the older generation has often complained that the young people of Guangzhou don't care about their culture and are always looking up to foreign cultures.

"Now, they're proving they do care," she said. "It's like they've all woken up."

Kuo is with The Times' Beijing Bureau. Tommy Yang contributed to this report.

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/08/world/la-fg-china-dialects-20100809

BanguIzai SG

The language that is best suited to the kids is their mother tongue.

So Cantonese would be better off speaking Cantonese, Teochew would be better off speaking Teochew, Malays would be better off speaking Malay, whatever

Instead of asking people to learn non-mother tongue languages to be pretended as the real mother tongue ah

Clivebenss SG

Dun worry the world is now suck into the little pc on their hands.

SJS6638 SG

Yes and No to it.

2 sides to a coin ..........

BanguIzai SG

Good evening Penghulu and Pengawal

Singapore is also following the footsteps of China to eradicate all dialects at all cost

http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%8E%A8%E5%B9%BF%E6%99%AE%E9%80%9A%E8%AF%9D#.E5.BB.A3.E8.A5.BF

(I broke them down into points for easier reading and underline for highlight sake)

Example 1:

廣西自古就是多語言多方言的地區，從廣東傳來的粵語曾影響甚大。

The PRC government is doing all that it can, a step at a time to cut-off all links to Cantonese being used in Guangxi, Nanning.

It has accelerated in the recent 2 years owing to pressure from the Central Party wanting to clamp down on all dialects and only allowing Putonghua in all spheres of life.

Other Examples:

Also you may visit my previous post as some sort of reference:

http://sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/399157?page=6#post_9805246

Clivebenss SG

Soon all will disappear along with the heritages that each dialects have.

BanguIzai SG

What to do?

If Singaporean Hokkien disappears, there is no point to learn the full Standard Amoy Hokkien also, although it is still better than nothing. It will never be able to replace the status of Singaporean Hokkien because Singaporean Hokkien has evolved separately due to its geographical position and history.

Example:

I have been speaking of "mor-peng" (IPA: mɔ˨˩ peŋ˦) since I started speaking Hokkien as a child.

Only very recently (last 2 month) I got to know this word is originated from the Malay languages (so as not to pinpoint any Malay dialect in specific because I am not sure), bopeng, same meaning.

Clivebenss SG

not sure about this one could be the other way round as many Malay (predominantly in early Indonesia) adapt Hokkien into their usage.

BanguIzai SG

You are right.

In at least 5 of the sources below, it is mentioned that the Malay bopeng could have been adopted from Chinese dialect (indicatively Hokkien).

Source 1:

《新加坡闽南话词典》 (2002, 周长楫、周清海编)

http://www.huayuqiao.org/articles/zhouqinghai/mnhcd.htm

contains entries 1) 麻癍 mɔ peŋ and 2) 麻癍的 mɔ peŋ e

The entry 麻癍的 mɔ peŋ e (meaning pockmarked-face person) specially indicates "Malay also uses the word borrowed from Hokkien" and points to the source as 《现代马来语词典 : 华马双解》 (Kamus istilah baru bahasa Malaysia)

which leads to Source 2.

Source 2:

《现代马来语词典 : 华马双解》 Kamus istilah baru bahasa Malaysia (1984,杨贵谊、陈妙华编)

http://elib.uum.edu.my/kip/Record/um78329

Source 3:

《马华英语文词典》 Kamus bahasa Malaysia, Tionghoa, Inggeris (1982, Lutfi Abas、李绍隆、颜佳黛编)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/work/11822441?q&versionId=13929232

contains entry 1) bopeng = 麻癍、麻斑

Source 4:

Book version:《Loan-words in Indonesian / Malay》 (2007,Russell Jones)

Online version: http://www.sealang.net/lwim/

contains entry

bopéng
1 pock-marked (doubtful entry)
CF: mopéng
ETY: Amoy? 麻斑 mô·pan Campbell1914:492 CDxxxx:358a

Source 5:

《Chinese Loan-words in Indonesian / Malay》 (2009,Russell Jones)

http://www.penangbookshelf.com/servlet/the-1103/Chinese-Loan-dsh-Words-in-Malay/Detail

contains entry exactly as above Source 4 as well.

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However, I tend to differ from the opinions of the above authors. Through my independent observations, I am inclined to believe that Hokkien "mor-peng" was otherwised adopted from Malay dialects.

Why is this so?

There are 3 points that I observed:

Point 1:

In the few authoritative Hokkien dictionaries published by Chinese linguists, the lack of the entry "mor-peng" is indeed very surprising.

It is not found in the below dictionaries at all:

〖闽南方言大词典〗- 周长楫
〖普通话闽南方言常用词典〗 - 林宝卿
〖A Practical English-Hokkien Dictionary〗- Chiang Ker Chiu

Especially 〖A Practical English-Hokkien Dictionary〗written by a Singaporean Local (year unknown - before 1960s) who practically will avoid any local colloqualisms, it gives the entry for "pockmarked" not as "mor-peng" but only as "niau ~ ~" etc.

See this old post: http://sgforums.com/forums/2029/topics/355579#post_9014309

Point 2:

Assuming that Hokkien "mor-peng" loaned the word into Malay dialects, how did it became bopeng?

Thus, we shall use the list from 《Chinese Loan-words in Indonesian / Malay》 (2009,Russell Jones) to look at a list of supposedly Chinese dialects>Malay words starting with "b-" and check the probability for the occurrence of the change from the Chinese dialects "m-" to Malay "b-" :---

01. bacang / bakcang (◄ bah tsang) = dumpling
02. bak (◄ bak) = ink
03. bak (◄ bah) = pork / meat
04. bakcat-hi (◄ bak tsat hi) = cuttlefish
05. bakhi (◄ bak hiN) = inkstone
06. bakhu (◄ bah hu) = porkfloss
07. bakiak (◄ bak kiah) = clogs
08. bakmi / bami (◄ bah mi) = meat noodles
09. bakpao / bapao (◄ bah pau) = stuff pork pau
10. bakpia (◄ bah piaN) = mung bean pie
11. baksat / bangsat / batsat / basat (◄ bak sat) = bedbug
12. bakso / baso (◄ bah so) = meatballs
13. baktau / batau (◄ ba thau) = brothel lady boss
14. bakwan (◄ bah oan) = pork balls
15. ban (◄ ban) = ten thousand
16. banci (◄ man tsik) = census
17. bangking (◄ bang kheng) = round lacquer box for clothes storage
18. banji (◄ ban ji) = swastika pattern
19. banpihong (◄ ban pi hong) = children disease
20. bansun (◄ ban sun) = dried bamboo rhizomes
21. beca / becak (◄ be chhia) = pedicab
22. begeko / beleko (◄ beh le ko) = glutinous syrup
23. beh (◄ be) = horse
24. behke (◄ beh ke) = shellfish
25. beko (◄ bi ko) = ricecakes
26. beng (◄ peng) = ice
27. benteng (◄ peng thng) = sugar candy
28. bepa / bepang / bipang (◄ bi phang) = rice/sugar cake
29. besai / bisae (◄ be sai) = can't be done
30. bi (◄ bi) = frill / fringe
31. bihun (◄ bi hun) = vermicelli
32. bike (◄ bi kheh) = rice merchant
33. bimpo (◄ bin po) = face towel
34. binkok (◄ bin kok) = republic of china
35. bio (◄ bio) = temple
36. biokong (◄ bio kong) = temple-in-charge
37. bo / boh (◄ bo) = small handmill
38. boanciu (◄ boan chiu) = manchuria
39. boanseng (◄ boan seng) = I
40. boceng (◄ bo cheng) = ungrateful
41. bocengli (◄ bo cheng li) = unreasonable
42. bocuan (◄ bo tsoan) = without profit
43. boeh / boek (◄ boeh) = socks
44. bohsia (◄ bo siaN) = pleasure-loving girl
45. bohuat (◄ bo hoat) = cannot manage it
46. bojinceng (◄ bo jin cheng) = ungrateful
47. bokci (◄ pok se) = a temple
48. bokji / bokni (◄ bok ji / bok ni) = edible black/white fungus
49. bokongto (◄ bo kong to) = unfair
50. boksu (◄ bok su) = pastor
51. bolui (◄ bo lui) = no money
52. bong (◄ bong) = tomb
53. bongkok (◄ bong kok) = national subjugation
54. bongmeh (◄ bong meh) = feel the pulse
55. bongpai (◄ bong pai) = tombstone
56. bongsua (◄ bong soaN) = graveyard
57. bopeng (◄ mo pan) = pock-marked
58. bopo / bopok (◄ bo poh) = to be damaged
59. bosengli (◄ bo seng li) = no business
60. bosiukhi (◄ bo siu khi) = not to be angry
61. botalo / botaolo (◄ bo thau lo) = unemployed
62. botan (◄ bo tan) = peony
63. boto (◄ bo to) = wicked
64. boyaukin (◄ bo iau kin) = no matter
65. bucing (◄ mo tsang) = pigtail
66. bue (◄ boe) = plum
67. buhiap (◄ bu hiap) = martial arts
68. bun (◄ bun) = literature
69. bunbing (◄ bun beng) = civilised
70. bunki (◄ bun khi) = decorous
71. bunli (◄ bun li) = cultivated
72. busu (◄ bu sut) = martial arts

Out of 72 entries from supposed Chinese>Malay loanwords starting with "b-", only 3 entries (4.1%) came from Chinese dialects "m-".

This shows that the Malay language(s) has a tendency to keep the original "b-" from the Chinese dialects as "b-" (95.9%). It happens that both languages have this exact same consonantal sound.

The same tendency shows up for "m-" (about 17 entries) again where the Malay language(s) kept the original "m-" from the Chinese dialects as "m-" (100%). No change is effected because it happens that both languages have the exact same consonantal sound.

I suspect that "mor-peng" as a doubtful entry could be highly possible. (Refer to the above Source 4 classified as a "doubtful entry" by author Russell Jones)

Point 3:

Assuming that Malay bopeng loaned the word into Hokkien, how did it became "mor-peng"?

Thus, we shall use my compiled lists from my old posts:

http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/440050?page=25#post_10401690
http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/440050?page=25#post_10401727
http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/440050?page=27#post_10404888
http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/440050?page=29#post_10406318
http://sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/440050?page=29#post_10407125

to look at a list of supposedly Malay>Hokkien syllables starting with "m-" or "b-" and check the probability for the occurrence of the change (or retention) from the Malay "b-" to Hokkien "m-" :---

01. Melayu ► Bu Lai Yu = Malay
02. Mata ► Ma Ta = Police
03. Baba ► Ba Ba = Peranakan
04. Bali ► Ba Li = Ship Cabin
05. Timun ► Ti Bun = Cucumber
06. Buaya ► Buah A = Crocodile
07. Belacu ► Ba Tsu Por = Calico textile
08. Sabun ► Sap Bun = Soap
09. Makan ► Ma Kan = Eat (for scolding)
10. Mati ► Ma Ti = Die (for scolding)
11. Bau ► Ba U = Smell
12. Jamban ► Liam Ban = Toilet
13. Babi ► Ba Bi = Pig (for scolding)
14. Bangsal ► Bang San = Shed
15. Bicara ► Bit Tsa La = Trial
16. Botak ► Bo Tak = Bald
17. Mana ► Ma La = Where
18. Rambutan ► Ang Mor Tan = Rambutan
19. Bengali ► Bang Ka Li / Mang Ka Li = Bengala
20. Lubang ► Lo Bang = Opportunities
21. Manggis ► Mang Ngeh = Mangosteen
22. Nangka ► Bang Ka / Mang Ka = Jackfruit
23. Macam ► Ma Tsiam = Type
24. Minta ► Bin Tah = Request
25. Sahabat ► So Buat = Good friend
26. Malu ► Ma Lu = Embarassed
27. Balik ► Ba Leh = Again
28. Barangkali ► Bang Ka Li / Mang Ka Li = Perhaps
29. Baru ► Ba Lu = Just
30. Kemenyan ► Kam Bun Yen = Incense
31. Masak ► Ma Sah = Toys
32. Bomba ► Bom Ba = Fire Brigade
33. Sombong ► Som Bong = Proud
34. Jambu ► Liam Bu = Jambu
35. Bangkuang ► Mang Kuang = Yam bean
36. Belacan ► Ba La Tsien = Belacan
37. Buah Dongdong ► Bua Long Long = Buah Dongdong

Out of 37 entries of supposed Malay>Hokkien loanwords, there are
a. 4 Malay syllables having "b-" which changed to Hokkien "m-" (10.8%)
b. 20 Malay syllables having "b-" which retained in Hokkien as "b-" (54.1%)
c. 4 Malay syllables having "m-" which changed to Hokkien "b-" (10.8%)
d. 8 Malay syllables having "m-" which retained in Hokkien as "m-" (21.6%)

The Malay>Hokkien loanwords has erratic tendencies to retain or change "b-" to "b-" or to "m-" as well as retain or change "m-" to "m-" or to "b-".

Even though it happens that Hokkien possesses exactly the same type of consonantal sound as Malay, there is no clear correlation between change / no change.

From the above data, we noticed a sharp contrast to Hokkien>Malay loanwords, where we saw previously that the Malay language(s) can retain to almost 95%~100% of the original "b-" as the same "b-", as well as "m-" as the same "m-".

Thus, the Malayic bopeng could highly possibly change to "mor-peng".

This I conclude my findings.

Clivebenss SG

Thanks for the probability assessment. However I'm still inclined to Hokkien to Malay for morpeng.

If you read it's a full verse mor-peng tiao-teng you will understand why my reservation.

BanguIzai SG

Mor-peng Tiau-teng, could be a local version invented by us right? It just happen to take the rhymes of 2 related metaphors to describe a pockmarked and scarred face.
** Tiau-teng is authentic from China (with dictionary entries even in the Teochew dictionaries) = "eyelid scars"

Why I say "mor-peng" is a Malayic term becos it seems very strange that we can only find the term in the peninsular and archipelago languages here. Usually only the Hokkien, Teochew and Hainanese languages are more receptive in absorbing more Malayic terms than the Cantonese and Hakka languages. The Hokkien, Teochew and Hainanese languages also tend more to mutual influence each others too (probably due to their strong similarity in the first place).

That means, I can find "mor-peng" in Singaporean Hokkien, Singaporean Teochew, Penang Hokkien, Malaysian Teochew, Batam Teochew etc. etc.

What is strange is when we stepped out of Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, this "mor-peng" just disappears from other Hokkien and Teochew out there. For example, in the book "泰國的三個漢語方言", Thailand Teochew does not register "mor-peng" instead it registers "huae-ming" (花面).
Needless to say, all those Hokkien dictionaries and Teochew dictionaries published by China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, do not have the entry "mor-peng" at all.

I wonder, if "mor-peng" is authentic to the origin, why does it go traceless there and anywhere else, and why is it that it only appears in Singaporean Hokkien, Teochew, Malaysian Hokkien, Teochew, etc.? Obviously it is because these languages came into close contact with the Malayic languages.

jlowbog SG

there can always be a native word adds-on to a loanword.

BanguIzai SG

there can always be a native word adds-on to a loanword.

Ya u r right.

Like Hokkien which already has "niau-bin", it had borrowed from Malayic "bopeng" because they lived side-by-side.

One more which I had left out in the previous lists, because usually nobody talks it and usually it gets unnoticed as well:

Asal ► A Sa = As long as ; .... provided that ...

Example:

阿洒汝有收好勢，著免驚別儂偷拾去。
A Sa Li U Siu Ho Se, Tioh Bian KiaN Pat Lang Th'au Kh'eh Ki
As long as you have kept it properly, you do not need to fear it being stolen
You do not need to fear of it being stolen provided you have kept it safely

It is borrowed from the Malayic languages (highly confirmed to be Peranakan-Baba-Nyonya): Asal , or Asalkan

Clivebenss SG

all are losing to the little plastic.

BanguIzai SG

all are losing to the little plastic.

Hi Penghulu, this is largely true, but only for us Singaporeans.

I don't think I have seen Malaysian-Sarawakian-Chinese stopped speaking Hockchew nor had their Hockchew standards been declining seriously just because they held onto the little plastic (well, a lot of Sarawakians working in Singapore and I can hear them speak in the public as well as workplace).
Same thing for Indonesian-Medanese-Hokkiens do not stop speaking Hokkien just because they are sucked into their little pcs on their hands while on the MRTs. They still speak Hokkien with each other while shopping in the malls, while in the tertiary education institutes (eg. at university), while at workplace.

It is purely government policies in Singapore. This has also harmed the Johor Bahru Chinese population dialect standards to drop due to Singapore TV viewership.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I observed these are some new towns (referring to areas around town centres) where the Hokkien language often can still be easily heard (eg. the common language spoken among residents, shopowners, shop assistants in supermarkets, stallholders at respective foodcourts). Correct me if I am wrong (The Top 3):

(1st) Bukit Merah
(2nd) Telok Blangah
(3rd) Clementi

The following new towns where it is so hard to hear Hokkien being spoken that I believe Hokkien has ceased to exist being spoken as a common language. Please correct me again if I am wrong:

Northeast - Sengkang, Punggol
East - Pasir Ris, Tampines, Simei, Bedok
West - Choa Chu Kang, Yew Tee, Bukit Batok, Bukit Gombak, Jurong, Boon Lay
North - Woodlands, Sembawang, Yishun, Ang Mo Kio, Bishan, Toa Payoh

It seems that the last bastion of Hokkien is rather Central area to Mid South-West (the area roughly starting from Bukit Purmei, Telok Blangah, Zion, Henderson, Lower Delta, Bukit Merah, Tanglin Halt, Commonwealth, Queenstown, Holland Estate, Ghim Moh and up till including Clementi / West Coast but excluding Dover and Dawson Place).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Miscellaneous discussion:

1) I find it puzzling why "police/policeman" is called MA-TAU or MA-TAAU (馬悼) in Singaporean Cantonese, instead of others which had borrowed from Malayic "mata-mata" as MA-TA (Hokkien, Teochew, Hainanese: MA-TA 馬咑). According to Malaysian Cantonese it is MA-TA like other dialects. I wonder how it became Ma-Tau.

2) It is irritating when some Singaporean Hokkien cannot differentiate between 倩 (to employ someone) and 請 (to apply for job and be employed).
The 2 words have different meanings and same sound but have different tones:
倩, tsh'ĩã˨˩ (Hokkien 陰去 tone or 4th tone or Tone Mark 3)
請, tsh'ĩã˥˧ (Hokkien 陰上 tone or 3rd tone or Tone Mark 2)

From employer perspective can only use 倩, and from employee perspective can use 申請.
Eg.
Potential employee says "嘸知影只間公司愛倩(tsh'ĩã˨˩)我嘜？" (Dunno this company want to employ me or not?) or Employer says "我無倩(tsh'ĩã˨˩)咕哩甲我做工。" (I don't employ worker) but × cannot say × " × 我無請(tsh'ĩã˥˧)咕哩甲我做工。× "

Clivebenss SG

dialects will die out sooner or later.

charlize SG

wot.

Clivebenss SG

char si lang.