Singapore gets more leopard tanks

last SG · 2011-07-25T21:07:28+00:00

Then again many weapons are made for insurgencies or assymetric conflicts.

Hitman Journal SG

hi folks,,,i went for interview at piq logistics...interviewer rejected me in less than 3.5 mins after flippin thru my cert files which is exactly trhe same as my resume.he said he wont even accept me even as a traineee...he said he had 50 other people to consider in australia!and im an australian PR.he asked me to go back even to spore.

Planet Hitman SG

grr!

Jimmylie 96 SG

will the poor fight like tanks?

lol

weasel1962 SG

Lelong. More leopards on sale. This time Austria is selling their 114 Leopard 2s.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8348194&c=EUR&s=LAN

These are actually ex-Dutch Leopard 2-NL manufactured in the 80s/early 90s which appeared to be sold to Austria before the Dutch did their upgrading programme to the 2A5. The Dutch have also sold their surplus to Canada, Portugal and Chile and recently announced plans to sell off their remaining L2s.

tragickingdom SG

Incidentally, the Dutch have no MBT left. They dissolved their last armoured division. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Army

alize SG

Lelong. More leopards on sale. This time Austria is selling their 114 Leopard 2s.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=8348194&c=EUR&s=LAN

I won't be surprised if we quietly pick some up. MBTs are a sensitive thing here. And David Boey has alluded to the L2 being the SAF's third MBT type. He said the second was not the M60 CEV.

weasel1962 SG

I won't be surprised if we quietly pick some up. MBTs are a sensitive thing here. And David Boey has alluded to the L2 being the SAF's third MBT type. He said the second was not the M60 CEV.

"Secret" tanks aren't really useful due to limited training opportunities (affecting both firing accuracy and manouevre effectiveness). Consider how many exercises the L2SG has already undergone.

Singapore's requirement for MBT is limited imho. The 100-200km jungle frontage in the Malay peninsular and limited depth restricts MBT usage. A single L44 gun has a 4km effective range which covers 8km of frontage before movement. Even ATGMs have increasing range (25km if considering the spike NLOS). A lot of other equipment today replicates some of the MBT roles eg Apaches, Himars, Spike-LR (on LSVs) etc which reduces the need for MBTs.

The thing about the arms trade today is that its a lot more transparent. Unless its home developed, most transfers will end up reported today.

alize SG

"Secret" tanks aren't really useful due to limited training opportunities (affecting both firing accuracy and manouevre effectiveness). Consider how many exercises the L2SG has already undergone.

The thing about the arms trade today is that its a lot more transparent. Unless its home developed, most transfers will end up reported today.

This is a slightly different context. The first 2 MBTs did not serve operational roles and did not train large numbers of crews.

Extra L2s will be of the same type as the tanks we operate, and we can train many crews for them using the public tank stock. They will be useful as individual replacements or for equipping NS units, just like the ~350 AMX-13 which were never acknowledged.

weasel1962 SG

This is a slightly different context. The first 2 MBTs did not serve operational roles and did not train large numbers of crews.

The AMX-13 was acknowledged. In fact, it was publicly displayed in the 1969 NDP. Numbers are generally not published by Mindef. The exception being the L2 purchase.

350 was, I think, an estimation by IISS. Not to mistake though, there's a lot of them around.

History documents the examples and failures of newly or weakly crewed tanks. That's not counting the lack of logistical support eg ammo, spares etc that will remove any medium term use of a "secret" tank.

Underpaid SG

What were the 3 MBTs? Leopard, Centurion and?

alize SG

I believe numbers on strength are seldom publicised, but numbers bought and options exercised for further units seem to be publicly available.

Specific to the AMX-13s, I don't think such a high figure was acknowledged but they were going at $1 each, it made sense to buy many. A good many were used for spares or converted into other vehicles, so the reporting of "tanks" was sidestepped if ever necessary to do so.

Underpaid, he alluded to the 2nd MBT type but did reveal. We can only guess.

alize SG

As for the Centurions, I'm not sure if anyone has ever seen one or just passing anecdotes.

I don't even know if they were brought to Singapore or which country they remained in.

Wikipedia citing Tim Huxley: Singapore 63 Centurion Mk3 and Mk7s bought from India in 1975 and more from Israel in 1993-4, all upgraded to Israeli standard with new main guns and diesel engines

Underpaid SG

I can confirm the Centurions, Most were posted in Thailand, we got it from Israel I think, the “Storm” something variant, but there was a rusted hulk of one in Sungei Gedong when I was there.

Underpaid SG

Oh wait, could he have misclassified the AMX-10 as a MBT? If he went only by the main gun, it could be thought of as a MBT.

alize SG

Oh wait, could he have misclassified the AMX-10 as a MBT? If he went only by the main gun, it could be thought of as a MBT.

I don't think so, AMX-10 has been exhibited at AOH so no mystery there. He was trying to preserve opsec.

As a light tank, it would have been no more a sensitive issue with neighbours than a Scorpion 90.

weasel1962 SG

David Boey knows the difference between an MBT and a light tank/arm car. When one thinks about peninsular security, Thailand is the logical choice for placing armour in defense. Defends against India, China and Vietnam, 3 birds in 1 country. 50 km at its narrowest point in the Kra Isthmus.

Logical 2nd MBT types would be the Magach (M48/M60), both of which are operated by Thailand. There are over 1000 in Israel which were replaced by Merkavas.

alize SG

Logical 2nd MBT types would be the Magach (M48/M60), both of which are operated by Thailand. There are over 1000 in Israel which were replaced by Merkavas.

Do you think these tanks were for more than evaluation purposes? This would have required extensive training to be conducted on the tank and probably require crews to be posted to Thailand for long periods of time.

Is there any open speculation on the time frame the Centurion and the 2nd MBT were acquired? A rough idea will help our speculation on this 2nd MBT type, and our understanding of the regional security situation at the time.

M48/60: Taiwan operates them as well. This choice of tank also facilitates us to engage some of the world's best tank instructors.

alize SG

I can confirm the Centurions, Most were posted in Thailand, wI e got it from Israel I think, the “Storm” something variant, but there was a rusted hulk of one in Sungei Gedong when I was there.

You've certainly been around camps! I have a vague recollection you mentioned you were a Guardsman.

Underpaid SG

Must be someone else, my only Guards unit was 3rd Guards BMT in Nee Soon.

Not too familiar with the Magach, the only tanks I’m familiar with that had M48/60 were the American Walker and Patton. Any idea when David served? If he’s very, very old, could it be that we got some surplus Super Shermans from the Israelis?

As for the Centurions, I’m guessing they were either for study, target practice or to scare others off judging from their condition (rusted brown and hull paper thin, missing tracks, roadwheels etc) though that could have been after they were declared scrap. Totally unusable.

Talking about unknown tanks, I was in NS when they were roadtesting the Bionix under dri-clad covers, my unit kept reporting them as Stormers due to their shape. We thought the SAF was going British for a while. Razz

Bio-Hawk SG

Good quality but not designed for a battle!

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