Air Defence Ships

last SG · 2011-03-19T00:36:47+00:00

Standard Missiles are not for anti-ship use.And you did ask about a specialised air defence ship, right? If you wanted ship-killers you'd either need a gener...

Darth_Revan SG

"Anti-Ballistic Missiles"

From where? :)

And amanda, almost EVERY navy has a form of cruise missile or other. And if you're drooling over the Sunburn and Onyx, you really do not want the Brahamos against you. And it's one of the proposed armament of Malaysia's Kedah class warships.

weasel, there was a Mindef propoganda piece that stated that the FFGs operated a "unique configuration of Astor 15s and 30s". Can't find it, but I take it to mean they wanted all Astor 30s but were too cheap to spring for it, so some of the launchers got short changed. :P

Well, the Astor 30s are definitely a better bet against the Sunburn variety missiles, to be sure... :P

As for those, I suspect there are provisions, barring limitations due to the radar. The ones we are using aren't exactly up there in the top rungs of radar sets around....

Underpaid SG

"I suspect there are provisions, barring limitations due to the radar."

Yeah I heard speculation, but no hard facts. The RSN plays with it's cards very close to the vest.

OTOH, there ARE ways to bypass a crummy radar. Interlink with the Gulfstreams? You only need to guide until final aquisition, the Astor has it's own seeker. Possible solution?

"Well I'm not sure the air force willl be around if say the frigate is in the middle of the Pacific Ocean."

If the frigate is in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in a war to defend Singapore... I say fire the navigator. :P

And that area, cruise missiles are more likely. Planes don't usually cruise far from their bases unless someone really screwed up and gave away the route taken, AND the "enemy" wants to do a really extended range sortie. More likely combatants are chance encounters with warships/subs due to their long cruising endurance.

weasel1962 SG

There are facts like the herakles radar can't point upwards ie only up to 70deg elevation (official datasheet). In theory, any missile that has an inbound profile of more than 70 deg would not be trackable. The frigates were not intended as ABM platforms nor is there anyone with a proven ASBM capability.

Interestingly, one SAM system that has a limited TBM capability (in SG inventory and proven in that role in combat with the US marines) is the I-hawk.

Underpaid SG

"Interestingly, one SAM system that has a limited TBM capability (in SG inventory and proven in that role in combat with the US marines) is the I-hawk."

Had. Past tense. They mothballed it.

weasel1962 SG

"Interestingly, one SAM system that has a limited TBM capability (in SG inventory and proven in that role in combat with the US marines) is the I-hawk."

Had. Past tense. They mothballed it.

Any idea when that happened?

alize SG

Prob the missiles have reached their expiry date, it's prudent to avoid killing NSFs in a Nike-style explosion.

RSAF wanted to retire them early, but LG Leon Noi Xi told them they are the best in the world.

amanda.lu862 SG

Actually the ships have been in the middle of the ocean--they must have in order to test fire the Aster 15 off the coast of France

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2008/apr/03apr08_nr.html

and in the Pacific to train with a USNavy CSG

http://www.c7f.navy.mil/news/2011/01-january/012.htm

Underpaid SG

You totally missed the point.

amanda.lu862 SG

You totally missed the point.

What? I shown that the frigates have moved far

weasel1962 SG

What? I shown that the frigates have moved far

You need to understand the difference between war-time and peace-time deployments. Eg F-15SG based at Mountainhome will not be based at Mountainhome if there's an impending threat to SG security.

The operational context of the frigates need to be seen in that light.

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Underpaid, I think need to double confirm the I-hawk mothball story. The RSAF still featuring 163 sqn staff in the latest AF newsletter this year. As late as Nov last year nov, CAF visited 163 to see an I-hawk demo.

Underpaid SG

Think there was a misunderstanding, I meant the US has mothballed it in 2002 and replaced it with the Patriot not us. It still is a good system.

amanda.lu862 SG

You need to understand the difference between war-time and peace-time deployments. Eg F-15SG based at Mountainhome will not be based at Mountainhome if there's an impending threat to SG security.

The operational context of the frigates need to be seen in that light.

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Depends if they can get home in time. and if they are still up to date--why did one crash in Libya?

Same with the tanks supposedly kept in Taiwan

Underpaid SG

Planes in Taiwan, tanks in Thailand. Maybe tanks in Taiwan too? But I'm not sure on that. I know Aus is hosting an armour detachment.

F-15s will get back in time. How long does it take to fly SQ from Singapore to US? The F-15s will be much faster. And we just upgraded them, any evidence to show they are getting non-flightworthy?

weasel1962 SG

Depends if they can get home in time. and if they are still up to date--why did one crash in Libya?

Same with the tanks supposedly kept in Taiwan

The US F-15Es were bought in the 80s and early 90s. Even the typhoon, introduced this decade, had a major crash last August and required the grounding of several european fleets.

The Singapore F-15SG, which is again a new build, is actually equipped with sub-systems that are superior to existing F-15Es such as the AESA radar (that is now only being retrofit in stages to existing USAF F-15Es).

More than half the F-15SG fleet is now based in Singapore so they are home.

Its about 20 hours flying time to cover the 17-18,000 km journey from the US to Singapore. Anyone who has taken a trip to the US by plane would know that (and generally boeing jetliners fly at ~9XXkm/h or ~500 knots). The F-15SG can carry more fuel than the F-16s.

weasel1962 SG

Think there was a misunderstanding, I meant the US has mothballed it in 2002 and replaced it with the Patriot not us. It still is a good system.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. That explains why RSAF managed to get the EDA excess articles on the Hawk from US.

Link to the Hawk XXI brochure.

http://www.raytheon.com/businesses/rtnwcm/groups/public/documents/content/rtn_bus_ids_prod_hawkxxi_pdf.pdf

amanda.lu862 SG

The US F-15Es were bought in the 80s and early 90s. Even the typhoon, introduced this decade, had a major crash last August and required the grounding of several european fleets.

More than half the F-15SG fleet is now based in Singapore so they are home.

Why then are the F-15SGs relegated to as the RSAF strike fighters and the F-16s as the air defence?

And on a new topic, don't you think its not so cost-effective since in around 9-10 years time SG will be getting the F-35 joint strike fighter. So that would mean buying a "new" strike fighter and thne getting an even "newer" one a few years down the road

amanda.lu862 SG

And coming back to the topic of air defence ships, I don't vote for the Type 45s because they aren't fitted with CIWS yet--only HMS Daring is getting some trials with the US Phalanx system. Building a all new advanced air defence ship without new missiles but no CIWS doesn't make sense.

amanda.lu862 SG

Going back to the topic of air defence ships, I don't vote for the Type 45s since they lack CIWS--only HMS Darind is getting one (on trial).

Underpaid SG

CIWS is no longer as effective as it once was. In fact, it may be totally unusable against some newer missiles.

And amanda, you seem to have switched things around. Air defence is the EASIER job. Strike missions into hostile airspace are the harder ones and need a more capable fighter. Transiting from overseas allows for strikes against the enemy from unexpected directions instead of a super predictable one.

amanda.lu862 SG

CIWS is no longer as effective as it once was. In fact, it may be totally unusable against some newer missiles.

So when the missile is a just a few metres away from your ship, you dont want to have CIWS? Then has the US been wasting its time arming all its ships with Phalanx guns?

Air defence is just as hard as Strike.

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