Inadequate SAF Small Arms Sights

last SG · 2011-02-14T10:58:23+00:00

Ditzy, it is catastrophic if not very very stupid if you cant hit your target at 50 m when you happen to be doing guard duty one dark night at your army cam...

weasel1962 SG

An impression appears to be that existing SAF rifles including older generation ones cannot perform under 300m or in low-light/night conditions. This is patently false as anyone who has gone through NS would know. I think people should refocus back to the justification for the incremental benefits of a next-gen sight beyond 300m.

I think "Underpaid" made a good point about squad size. To add, it filters up in effect as one goes into platoon, company, battalion, brigade and division. The smaller number of shooters is magnified at division level.

It is rather similar to the Israeli context when they tackled far larger Arab formations. I would however highlight that Israeli force multipliers relied not just on indirect weapons capability but also direct weaponry eg MBTs. In desert storm, the Abrams were using the 12.7s to whack individual targets at far more significant ranges compared to small arms fire. Having said that, equipment like mortars was far more important in ensuring Israeli victory than small arms. Again, more SRAMs would make a greater difference.

That would suggest that sights should be improved at company level rather than squad eg GPMG, 12.7s or AGLs. ACSW is an interesting option but that would mean switching to 25mm from existing 40mm grenades. Ultimately, its a question of balance.

Sepecat SG

Is Spencer Underpaid ?

Underpaid, if you are saying that SAF is not giving sufficient emphasis in training for small arms firing / handling and that SAF soldiers do not know the capabilities of the weapons they are handling, we are in big trouble. It is the failure of the leadership if they do not ensure that their men know not only how to use their weapons effectively & proficiently , but also know the weapons' capabilities, pros & cons.

For the record, Matador will be able to kill light tanks, APCs & other softer targets. It can also be used to blow large holes in walls & knock out bunkers. It cannot kill a MBT, but it will take out a track, engine or optics. 50 cal sabot rounds can kill APCs or light armor, but if opponent has similar or bigger calibre weapon than yours, it is only a last resort.

And also for the record, I hope that I am in the majority to be able to tell you that I am very proficient in handling the SAF weapons I am assigned to. I am also fully aware of their capabilities and limitations - you obviously are not ? Which makes me wonder if your only experience is BMT.

A laser need only be pointing close or around you for you to know that you are being targeted and that is my point that the laser warns the target and worse still gives away the shooter because the target then knows exactly where the laser is coming from. It is akin to flashing a torch light and saying “here I am ”. Also, in a battlefield with lots of smoke and dust, the laser light reflected off these particles will betray the shooter’s position. Clearly using a visible laser in a battlefield at night is a big NO NO. It is a very impractical system for a night battle.

What is with NVGs and bullet proof vests ? Please clarify. What on earth are you talking about ?

If all SAF riflemen have an attitude like Underpaid , then there is no point in having riflemen in the SAF ORBAT. What is the point of training riflemen if they are afraid or have no confidence in engaging the enemy with their weapons ? What kind of rifleman are you ? More likely you are not. You want to call an airstrike to take out an enemy section that has already ambushed you ? Or maybe you can count on never being ambushed.

Don’t you know in all wars it is finally the infantryman / rifleman who has to close with the enemy in a close quarter battle. Do you know of any wars won only by arty and airpower ? Clearly you do not know what you are talking about.

For an infantryman the situation is shit when he has to engage the enemy hand to hand & not when he still have his weapons and ammunition. Why does the US Army need infantrymen given its overwhelming superiority in all kinds of weapons including ballistic missiles & stealth bombers ? The firefight between opponents with small arms will remain for now & in the future. If wars can be won without infantrymen , there will be none and we will all not need to do BMT in the first place.

What doctrine are you talking about where small unit tactics are concerned ? All armies have similar small unit tactics. I am talking about using the small arm proficiently and more effectively.

So you are also saying that SAF infantry men are all not up to standard. So what does a rifleman in an SIR unit do for 2 years during NS ?

Who are manning our Leo2s, Terrex, Spikes, NVGs, 155s etc. Aren’t these very very expensive weapons too ?

For your enlightenment, these modern optics are designed & built to be as soldier proof as possible. They are probably built tougher than you.

I am not looking for Forumers to agree with me on the effectiveness of these sights although at least one has said that these sights are good but are not in SAF top priority list. I already have at least more than half a million veterans of current conflicts that more than agree with me on this issue. My point is that our rifleman shud be so equipped when it a small cost compared to very expensive systems that we are already spending on and also since these sights have proven extremely effective in actual combat.

Sepecat SG

Weasel,

I repeat . I & many others shoot effectively up to 300 m with iron sights.

Specifically the M16 had good iron sights with an illuminated front post. The

SAR21 scope is an improvement over the old M16s in clear daylight conditions & I

shoot better with a SAR21 than an M16 in these conditions.

The problem with the SAR21 sight are mainly as follows :-

- The thick black ring reticle blocks out parts of a target at the longer ranges

- In low light or at night the reticles are not illuminated & are hence useless

- No ranging marks

The improvements in modern sights are NOT incremental over iron sights & the likes

of the SAR21 sight ; they are significantly better & make good shooters very much

better & much deadlier.

I repeat, if it is more expedient to take out an enemy with an arty or air strike or even a

Spike, do it. But if you already overmatch your opponent in small arms & the like at

section, platoon ,company & battalion level, it is quicker to do it with small arms which

are at your immediate disposal.

So you now agree that these modern sights can be valuable for support weapons. I

clearly support them being used but with higher mags of 4 or more. Better still

combined with thermal imaging equipment for the 24 hr battle.

I am talking about overpowering advantage as a rifleman facing an enemy rifleman at a

small unit level.

weasel1962 SG

I'm not convinced that the latest sights improve effectiveness as much as claimed compared to existing, and far less below 300m where targets are already within normal visual range.

As mentioned in my first post on this thread, I think good gun sights serve as recon tools as well. This is generally not needed below 300m and a good pair of binos can easily replicate this capability beyond 300m.

The suggestion for better sights is certainly far better than your earlier raam suggestion. But in the context of the SAF, they do not replace everything just like that. Even AR-15s are still in service and its replacement is still performed incrementally.

I think if the SAF were to think the previous optical sights were sufficient, they would not have shifted production to the full length picatinny rail SAR-21A. The rail would allow for integration of other sights. In this regard, my guess is that the SAF would leverage on better sights eventually. It make sense to use the latest sights for later production models as they become available, subject to suitability. However, I doubt if this will extend into a retrofit.

Underpaid SG

"Is Spencer Underpaid ?"

Beats me, you'll have to ask him.

A bit careless there were you?

"Underpaid, if you are saying that SAF is not giving sufficient emphasis in training for small arms firing / handling and that SAF soldiers do not know the capabilities of the weapons they are handling, we are in big trouble. It is the failure of the leadership if they do not ensure that their men know not only how to use their weapons effectively & proficiently , but also know the weapons' capabilities, pros & cons."

Finally something we agree on.

"For the record, Matador will be able to kill light tanks, APCs & other softer targets. It can also be used to blow large holes in walls & knock out bunkers. It cannot kill a MBT, but it will take out a track, engine or optics. 50 cal sabot rounds can kill APCs or light armor, but if opponent has similar or bigger calibre weapon than yours, it is only a last resort."

Sepe, I know it can take out APCs, LTs etc I've seen the demo plates of chobham after they got shot at from a 0.5 all the way up to a 75mm. The question is, does my heavy weapons team know? Out of curiosity, are you just skimming posts? You seem to mis-comprehend a lot of things, either deliberately or carelessly.

"And also for the record, I hope that I am in the majority to be able to tell you that I am very proficient in handling the SAF weapons I am assigned to. I am also fully aware of their capabilities and limitations"

Typewriter? :P

"- you obviously are not ? Which makes me wonder if your only experience is BMT."

Woo... inuendo and slander. Nice going dude.

"A laser need only be pointing close or around you for you to know that you are being targeted and that is my point that the laser warns the target and worse still gives away the shooter because the target then knows exactly where the laser is coming from. It is akin to flashing a torch light and saying “here I am ”. Also, in a battlefield with lots of smoke and dust, the laser light reflected off these particles will betray the shooter’s position. Clearly using a visible laser in a battlefield at night is a big NO NO. It is a very impractical system for a night battle."

You can tune it down to the infra-red...

"What is with NVGs and bullet proof vests ? Please clarify. What on earth are you talking about ?"

Officially, all SAF soldiers will be equiped with L3 Kevlar Vests in times of war, but you don't often see them, only in rare cases like the hunt for Mas S. or that case where robbers escaped to Tekong with a pistol. Look through the old ST photos, you'll find some soldiers wearing vests, that was supposed to be our war attire. Same with the NV monocles.

"If all SAF riflemen have an attitude like Underpaid , then there is no point in having riflemen in the SAF ORBAT."

If all SAF riflemen have an attitude like SEPECAT, we need more crematoriums. Besides, if my team does get ambushed, approximate life expectency is about 2 mins. Not joking here. We just do not have the bodies to take casualties and retain fighting capability and by the time that damn smoke grenade goes off, chances are high we'll be dead. Which brings me to another pet peve of mine, short fuse smoke grenades...

"So you are also saying that SAF infantry men are all not up to standard. So what does a rifleman in an SIR unit do for 2 years during NS ?"

Eat and sleep like all the rest of the NS boys. :P Did my ACT in 2 SIR before being co-opted to... other things. Dare you to say I'm wrong, especially when I'm the personal eyewitness.

"For your enlightenment, these modern optics are designed & built to be as soldier proof as possible. They are probably built tougher than you."

You obviously havn't met any idiot who oiled a scope before. And yes, that happened at a range where me and my unit were doing a SAR21 conversion, a unit mate kept missing, which was very strange, our shooting is never THAT bad. We found the last NSF guy to store the rifle must have oiled the sights, besides being blurry, the parallex was off due to refraction off a thin layer of oil on the lens. That is the kind of "maintainance" your sights are going to see in a unit. Things are soldier proof until they hit idiots, idiot proof until they hit fools and foolproof until they hit soldiers. Get used to it. Not everyone has a degree and thinks like professors, we need to cater for the ground level idiots too. Like...

BTW, SEPECAT, what's the difference between our SAR scope and say... the aimpoint system you were pedelling?

Underpaid SG

Weasel, think the refit of P-Rails was not a slight against the sights but to actually bring the SAR21 more in line with international standards and add a greater degree of flexibility to the configuring. This means that if there is nothing seriously wrong with the sights, which I have found to be the case, they'll just keep the old batch soldiering on without improvements, so I won't hold my breath for a refit.

And I also agree with the SRAMs. As close arty support, they're invaluable to our small squads if forward deployed with Spiders. In this case, we'll need more trained artillery observers, preferably one per squad.

spencer99 SG

Hi All,

Spencer is adequately compensated and is not "Underpaid"...

Sepecat SG

Bravo to spencer for not being underpaid like probably most of us. Sounds like you are just being too modest. I suspect that you must be Overpaid.

Sepecat SG

Underpaid, your explanation regarding NVGs and bulletproof vests please.

weasel1962 SG

Agreed. Same as SAR-21 replacing M-16 is not a slight against the M-16. Its just older tech.

Some of the features of the SAR-21A does address complaints about ergonomics of the earlier SAR-21.

I like the ACMS concept which practically means that anyone holding the ACMS modules can become a forward observer (FO). The main weapon supporting CAS will still be arty + helo hellfires. A/c bombs + himars still need quite a bit of safety distance though that can change with new batches of bombs.

That's why theres a trend toward smaller bombs eg SDB. With less collateral damage, bombs can be targeted closer to forward lines. Until then, SRAMs, other mortars, AGLs + M203s with the far smaller blast is still necessary indirect fire support weapons.

Sepecat SG

Underpaid, if you r in charge of a heavy weapons platoon, it is your job & responsibilty to ensure your men know the capabilities & limitations of their weapons. You are clearly Overpaid if you as a leader did not teach your men adequately.

Skimming posts ? Please clarify.

I am level headed and have absolute clarity in my train of thought. Comprehension is one of my strong traits. I am sure that you are teh one who is does not comprehend.

Sepecat SG

Underpaid, your lack of comprehension is so obvious when you intepret my statement that “ I am very proficient in handling the SAF weapons I am assigned to” and equate typewriters to weapons.

No innuendo or slander just questions - so you only when thru BMT right ? And you were an army clerk right ?

Sepecat SG

Hi Underpaid,

You can tune it down to the infra-red

If so, then where are the NVGs for this to work ?

So what are you saying ? That SAF does not train as it will fight ?

To the contrary, if SAF riflemen have the best training equipment & training, both of which I am advocating, it will be the enemy who has to build many more crematoriums & cemeteries.

Your statements are unrefutable proof that Underpaid does not have the mindset of the war fighting man. In war, expect to be ambushed & expect to take casualties but on the flip side make sure the enemy is ambushed very much more often and takes on very many more casualties than friendly forces. And you will really need your small arms skills & weapons at hand to beat back that ambush. What happened to the battalion, brigade, division & air force assets ? Can’t call for that arty or air strike in this situation right ?

Have you ever wondered that it cud be you who are too slow in throwing the smoke grenade rather than the grenade having a short fuze ?

"So you are also saying that SAF infantry men are all not up to standard. So what does a rifleman in an SIR unit do for 2 years during NS ?"

Eat and sleep like all the rest of the NS boys. :P Did my ACT in 2 SIR before being co-opted to... other things. Dare you to say I'm wrong, especially when I'm the personal eyewitness.

Wow, it was that obvious for 2SIR to realize that you cud never be a rifleman that they shipped you out so fast ? It must have been the slow reflexes displayed at smoke grenade throwing or did you in fact let go of a smoke grenade in the battalion CP ?

Just because you were an idle king does not mean that others are too. I have definitely seen more committment in NS men than you have .

"For your enlightenment, these modern optics are designed & built to be as soldier proof as possible. They are probably built tougher than you."

One does not need to have a degree to know that you don’t oil optics. Don’t blame the soldier ; blame the leaders whose job it is to ensure that this does not happen. There is no such thing as a bad soldier, only bad generals.

BTW, SEPECAT, what's the difference between our SAR scope and say... the aimpoint system you were pedelling?

Now we are talking ! See what I mean, you guys have never seen or used one to appreciate why each rifleman shud have one.

Like I said, there are a few types & I do not work or represent any of those below.

http://www.aimpoint.com/products/whyreddotsight/

http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/community/video.php

http://www.eotech-inc.com/page.php?id=8

1X Aimpoint red dot & similar sights are parallax free. The dot naturally draws the shooter to align the dot to the target. If already zeroed & applying the fundamentals of shooting ( same as with all sights whether iron or not ), where the dot is is where the round hits. The dot need not be in centre of scope & you can have two eyes open. The end result when using this sight is very rapid target acquisition & accuracy which completely outmatches iron sights especially at short ranges.

Magnified sights can also be used at shorter ranges but cannot beat 1X at short ranges in terms of speed. But mag sights say 2X to 4X obviously make hitting targets out to 300 to 400 m easier. They also have illuminated dots in the sight reticule. They also usually have range marks which enables the shooter to hit longer range targets since these are in fact aiming marks for the various ranges. And putting these mag sights on SAWs, GPMGs & 84s will clearly make for a very bad day for the enemy.

And of course all these sights are passive and can be used in low light & night conditions. So long as you know where the dot is , thats where your round will hit.

Then you have the variable mag sights but these are very much more costly & less robust than fixed mag sights. But then you enjoy the best of both worlds in one package.

Edited by Underpaid 17 Feb `11, 8:20PM

Underpaid SG

Yeah yeah Mr walking advert. Answer me this. What's the functional difference between the Trijicon system you are so gaga about, and the SAR's optical sight? Answer: They are the bloody same thing, just that you used one in the commercial world and went gaga over it had more bells and whistles while the army one is more "plain jane". They end up giving the same capabilities sans the night illumination, which is the LAD's job.

"I am level headed and have absolute clarity in my train of thought. Comprehension is one of my strong traits. I am sure that you are teh one who is does not comprehend."

Monomania more like.

And your ad?

Point 1 is just chest thumping and a plug.

Point 2 is wrong, red dot does not compensate droppage.

The rest are just mostly promo about QC.

I'll just treat this as kid SEPECAT's brainless rant page. Careful guys, if you disagree with him, your parents were never married and you shag dogs.

SEPE, you been through BMT yet? Me and shotgun have our doubts. The way you post, you definately can't be above 25. 16 is my guess.

BTW, what unit were you with? I'm RSTA.

Underpaid SG

Oh missed something. I'll take this slow so Mr "English is my 9th language" can understand.

About the NVGs, you asked if everyone is going to have one. Answer: Yes, in theory. Like the Kevlar vests that are supposed to be war issue. In theory. I'd love to see how good their distribution system really is if the button is pushed though.

And quit whining that the SAF doesn't train like it fights, that's obviously the case, 100 round mags-not issued, Kevlar-not issued, range 4 rounds per mag vs 30 rounds per mag warload, exercises without the full ammo load (180 rounds weigh a fair bit on a LBV), NVGs-only some units, laser targetter (TAG one, not the piddly SAR one)-not even in exercises. You still say we train with a war loadout? Which dreamland unit were you from?

Sepecat SG

o Yeah yeah Mr walking advert. Answer me this. What's the functional difference between the Trijicon system you are so gaga about, and the SAR's optical sight? Answer: They are the bloody same thing, just that you used one in the commercial world and went gaga over it had more bells and whistles while the army one is more "plain jane". They end up giving the same capabilities sans the night illumination, which is the LAD's job.

Hey Underpaid, you still do not know the

differences between these sights and the

one on the SAR21 after I have listed them

out so clearly for you ? Kindly read them

again – a few more times perhaps.

The SAR21 sight in not by any measure

in the same class as these sights.

Trijicons, Aimpoints & the like are used in

real shooting wars & not as in your

words used in a “commercial” world –

it is the real world.

It is in fact the bells & whistles in these sights

which you yourself have identified which

make these sights far superior

than the SAR21 sight.

The SAF chose the AH64D precisely because of the

bells & whistles, otherwise we will be stuck with a

a “plain jane” AS550 with TOW missiles.

So why shud our rifleman settle for less ?

Unless you are not a true rifleman of course.

"I am level headed and have absolute clarity in my train of thought. Comprehension is one of my strong traits. I am sure that you are teh one who is does not comprehend."

Monomania more like.

“momomania” is clearly not in anyone’s vocabulary. So it is in fact a nonsensical word.

And your ad?

Point 1 is just chest thumping and a plug.

Point 2 is wrong, red dot does not compensate droppage.

They do not. The range stadia do as I had mentioned.

The rest are just mostly promo about QC.

I'll just treat this as kid SEPECAT's brainless rant page. Careful guys, if you disagree with him, your parents were never married and you shag dogs.

SEPE, you been through BMT yet? Me and shotgun have our doubts. The way you post, you definately can't be above

25. 16 is my guess.

Your above statements are the workings of a raving lunatic. It is plain for all to see.

Also, you are so lacking in confidence that you need Shotgun to come to your rescue. Please await your knight in shining armor the poor Underpaid damsel in distress.

BTW, what unit were you with? I'm RSTA.

Mine is classified.

Underpaid SG

I call bullshit on the classified unit nonsense. You obviously have no idea what RSTA unit is do you, or you would never have pulled the "I'm classified" bullshit. Go wiki it. If I can put it here, there are VERY little units more "classified", even the LURPS I know identify themselves as such. Only more classified units that come to mind immediately are some of the SOF and the STAR. And I doubt you are either. You really never were in a unit before were you? Unless it's a NCC wannabe.

In 19th century psychiatry, monomania (from Greek monos, one, and mania, mania) is a single pathological preoccupation in an otherwise sound mind.^[1] Emotional monomania is that in which the patient is obsessed with only one emotion or several related to it; intellectual monomania is that which is related to only one kind of delirious idea or ideas. In 1880, monomania was one of the seven recognized categories of mental illness.^[2] After the 1950's monomania was no longer used as a technical term in psychology,^[3] and does not appear in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders.^[4] However, a number of disorders once classified under monomania survive as impulse control disorders or conduct disorders or delusional disorders.

Monomania may refer to:^{[citation needed]}

In general terms, many of the disorders previously classified as monomania^[5]^[6] now are identified as varieties of impulse control, conduct, or delusional disorders.^[7]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No need for Shotgun to come out, I got my own personal one just to shoot you down. :P

Think you classify under 4)

English really is not your main language isn't it..

Underpaid SG

Sepecat SG

So are your comprehension is better for the first 8 languages ?

Your only theory is taking out the enemy by an arty or air strike just like a video game - typical juvenile thinking.

You are the one who in fact alluded that each SAF rifleman will have a NVG. You must have been dreaming during NS.

Stop whining ! Can t you see that the SAF does not trust wimps who cant handle a smoke grenade let alone a full 100 round mag, NVGs ?

Sepecat SG

I can now understand why momomania has never been in my vocab.One needs to be totally immersed in this area of mental health to be even aware of the existence of such a word - and you know it !

According to Websters

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