Vietnam Geopolitical Shift

Arapahoe SG

I supposed 30 years ago nobody would see this coming......alignment with France, the US, and Russia.

(AP) – 3 hours ago

HANOI, Vietnam — The French defense minister has agreed to help Vietnam modernize its military on a historic visit to the former colony, state media reported Tuesday.

Vietnam recently bought radar, helicopters and transport aircraft from France, according to French Defense Minister Herve Morin, as the Southeast Asian country gradually tries to upgrade its antiquated armed forces.

"There is a strong demand from Vietnam for France's active participation in the modernization of its army," Morin was quoted by online newspaper VietnamNet as saying. "France is willing to meet all demands by Vietnam."

Morin's visit Monday marked the first time a French defense minister traveled to the country since Vietnam's 1954 surprise defeat at Dien Bien Phu, which led to the surrender and withdrawal of French forces.

The countries also discussed cooperation between their navies, armies and air forces, and France will soon organize training courses for Vietnamese military officers, Morin said.

Before the recent order from France, Russia, the country's former communist ally, had been Vietnam's main supplier of armaments. In December, Vietnam ordered six Kilo submarines and 12 Sukhoi Su-30MK2 fighter jets from Moscow.

In recent years, Vietnam has developed closer military ties with another former foe, the United States, including exchanging defense minister visits, welcoming U.S. Navy ships and participating in military-to-military training . The Vietnam War ended in 1975 when northern Communist forces seized the U.S.-backed capital of former South Vietnam, reunifying the country.

Arapahoe SG

Caught a news article dated in dec 2009.

The request came during a visit on Thursday to France by Vietnam's Minister of Defence Phung Quang Thanh, who met his French counterpart Herve Morin, the Voice of Vietnam reported on its website.

"Minister Thanh asked France to help Vietnam train its army medical personnel and sell the country helicopters, transport aircraft and other modern military equipment," Voice of Vietnam said.

"The two ministers signed an agreement on defence co-operation between the two countries and agreed to hold further talks on defence issues."

Thanh travelled to France from a rare visit to the United States, where he held talks with US Defence Secretary Robert Gates.

Vietnam defeated both France and the US in lengthy wars decades ago.

On Tuesday, Vietnam and Russia signed a long-planned arms deal during avisit by Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung to Moscow.

Details were not released but Russia's Interfax news agency reported that Vietnam had agreed to buy six ultra-quiet Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines for about two billion dollars.

Analysts said it was a major investment aimed at bolstering claims against China over potentially resource-rich islands in the South China Sea.

The deal with Russia also reportedly included Sukhoi Su-30MK2 warplanes, which are among the world's most advanced.

Lieutenant General Nguyen Chi Vinh, Vietnam's deputy minister of defence, told reporters last week that the country is considering many possible partners to help modernise its military.

Arapahoe SG

I wonder what would Ho Chi Minh get to say about this......resume contact with France and the US.

But i must says leadership renewal allow these countries to move past the old bitterness and find new meaning to start a new.

And if you get this statement. -- The Good looks Bad but the "Bad" is Good.

Terminator Hitman SG

,,,,,,,,,,,,so whats all the fightin,carpet bombing n dead people etc meant for???i think they gots nothing better to do than fight after having meals.

Arapahoe SG

,,,,,,,,,,,,so whats all the fightin,carpet bombing n dead people etc meant for???i think they gots nothing better to do than fight after having meals.

Leadership renewal help them to go beyond their old political dogma.

Just like you got to reformat your head on all the conspiracy theory to accept new idea. Forgiveness Is a powerful tool.

aknoo123 SG

actually it is not surprising... Vietnam is realist in a political sense...their position has always been vulnerable to China.. and China had a history of invading and dominating vietnam all the way back to the imperial times... also the thawing and repairing of relations with the french has already begun a long time ago... it was the french who helped broker peace between US and North Vietnam back then, it was the french who was actively trying to bring peace after accepting the fact they had lost Indochina after their failed attempt to reconquer the states. Since then the French had been neutral and not aiding the US in their war of aggression against vietnam during the vietnam war era.... sides.. France is still considered as more of a neutral then a pro US country given the past 10 years of frosty relationship with the US and at times even opposed US policy of invading Iraq and such.

Deino SG

They should be concentrating on their economy and citizens...-_-..

The world tried to go into global disarmament. Yet today its globally arming itself more and more everyday.

Fatum SG

you got it right mate.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness really .... it's just realpolitiks .....

the frogs will sell hardware to anyone, the chinese got the dauphin chopper in the above pic from the frogs too.

And to the viets, their biggest current strategic threat is not from uncle sam, but to their north, china.

They, like the rest of asean, would much rather see US carriers in the south china sea rather than chinese warships and chinese permanently in the spratleys.

And they are probably the only party in the spratley disputes to have the balls and the stomach to actually confront the chinese. So it's a good thing they are stocking up on some quality hardware.

Arapahoe SG

you got it right mate.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness really .... it's just realpolitiks .....

the frogs will sell hardware to anyone, the chinese got the dauphin chopper in the above pic from the frogs too.

And to the viets, their biggest current strategic threat is not from uncle sam, but to their north, china.

They, like the rest of asean, would much rather see US carriers in the south china sea rather than chinese warships and chinese permanently in the spratleys.

And they are probably the only party in the spratley disputes to have the balls and the stomach to actually confront the chinese. So it's a good thing they are stocking up on some quality hardware.

Yes realpolitiks but certainly there is a will to move past the history.

But you are right Vietnam is probably the only nation in Asean that will Stick it to the Man!!

Terminator Hitman SG

araphoe,]

forgiveness????it depends...it all depends on them if they are still forcing strict policies like polpot n his victims.....u sure folks would forgive polpot fer what he did in past???must have hurt people bad.....

anyway.....i dun think the ameriocans or french wou;ld give in to those who wiped out their.....face.dun expect usa to sell the vietnamese f-16 aircraft or even apache helicopters.the french would do likewise ....probably sell the vietnamese inferior stuff n outdated at that..

THAT IS HOW THEY WILL TREAT VIETNAM.U CANT EXPECT MORE THAN SOME RUSTY SHIPS AND TROOPSHIPS FROM FRANCE OR USA.

IF IM RIGHT THATS HOW FRANCE OR USA WOULD TREAT VIETNAME FOR PAST CONFLICTS..SURE THEY WOULD SELL VIETNAMESE STUFF....OLDOUTDATED MILITARY STUFF ...DUN THINK THEY WOULD SELL VIETNAMESE UAV OR ADVANCED STUFF....THATS WHERE THE VIETS WOULD TURN TO SPORE FOR ADVANCED MILITARY STUFF.

Terminator Hitman SG

THE VIETNAMESE ARE PRIMITIVE SOLDIERS.AND THEY NEED UNTHINKIN MACHINES TOWIPE THEM OUT.....THE AMERICANS N FRENCH COULDNT DO IT IN THE PAST DUE TO THE FACT THAT THEY DIDNT HURT IT DEEP INTO THE ENEMIES FRONT N BACKYARD.THEY JUST HAD TROOPS THAT DIDNT GO FORWARD BUT RATHER JUST STAY IN ONE PLACE N WAIT FOR THE ENEMY TO PAINT A TARGET ON THEM.PRETTY MUCH THE SAME TECHNIQUE AS IN PRESENT IRAQ WAR.

IN THE PAST VIETNAM WAR./..THEY KNEW WHERE HO CHIH MINH WAS BUT THEY JUST COULDNT N DIDNT GO NEAR THERE......ITS A MYSTERY REALLY.HAD THEY BEEN MORE SERIOUS THEYCOULD JUST HAVE GOTTEN TANKS AND DROVE INTO HO CHIH MINHS DOOR STEP N VIETNAM WOULD NOT END UP AS A COMMUNIST OR SO STATE.

THEY WANT PROGRESS.....IN WAR....MACHINES ARE THE REAL ONES DOING THE FIGHT...TANK BATTALIONS...PANZERS..TIGER TANKS,,,ETC.

Terminator Hitman SG

WHAT WAS SEEN IN VIETNAM:

1)WASTE OF BOMBS IN CARPET BOMBING JUNGLE

2)NO TANK BATTALIONS TOFIGHT WITH VIETNAMESE INFANTRY UNITS

3)SARIN GAS...MUSTARD GAS WERE NOT USED IN ENEMY TUNNEL SYSTEMS

4)FRENCH N US SOLDIERS WERE NOT USED TO TROPICAL JUNGLE ENVIROMENT WHICH WAS PURE TORTURE

5)THEY DIDNT SECURE AREAS AND GO STRAIGHT INTO THE HEART OF ENEMY EVEN THOUGH THEY KNEW WHERE HE WAS

6)US ARMY WERE INSUFFICIENTLY ARMED AGAINST VIETNAMESE WITH AK47

7)BATTALIONS OF US TROOPS ENDED UP IN FIREBASES WHICH REALLY DONT SERVE MUCH USE

SOLUTION:TO HAVE TANK BATTALIONS WITH ARMOURED TROOPS BEHIND N PLOUGH THROUGH VIETNAMESE INFANTRY ARMED WITH AK47..AND RPG.

ONLY THEN WILL THEY BE ABLE TO HAVE LESS CASUALTIES WITH AIRSTRIKES ON ENEMY ARTILLERY BEING THE MAJOR ADVANTAGE.......

Terminator Hitman SG

vietnamese airforce:

Attack Su-22, Mi-24 Fighter Su-30, Su-27, MiG-21 Patrol Ka-27, Ka-25 Reconnaissance M-400, An-30 Trainer Yak-52, L-39 Transport An-38, M-28, An-24, UH-1, Mi-8, Mi-17

M-400 UAV was an experimental reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicle was designed and built by the Institute of Technology Air Defense by the Vietnamese Ministry of Defense. Two M-400 UAVs were successfully launched in September 2005 after four years of construction with many test flights.

The UAV appears to be a small model type propeller driven aircraft. The UAV never entered full service in the Vietnamese People's Air Force (plans were to have 12 built) and is no longer in service due to lack of GPS to guide the craft and other critical components.

Most of the VPAF's aircraft were supplied from the Soviet Union & Red China, but hundreds were left over by the Americans via the Republic of Vietnam; most of which are no longer in service.

AircraftOriginTypeVersionsIn serviceNotes Fighter Aircraft Sukhoi Su-35BM "Flanker" Russia Air-superiority fighter Su-30MK2V 0 4 on order Sukhoi Su-30MK2V "Flanker" Russia Air-superiority fighter Su-30MK2V 12 20 on order^[9] Sukhoi Su-27SK/UB Flanker Russia Air-superiority fighter Su-27 36 1 plane crashed during training mission, no pilot casualty. Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-23ML/UB Soviet Union Air-superiority fighter MiG-23 36^[10] 2 planes was lost by air collision during training and crashed near Cam Ranh. Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21Bis Fishbed L/N Soviet Union Fighter MiG-21 200 Sukhoi Su-22M3/4 Fitter-J/K Soviet Union Attack Su-22 145+ On 9 June 2009, 1 crashed during training by Captain Trần Thanh Nghị, the pilot perished on the accident. Trainer Aircraft Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21U Mongol Soviet Union Trainer MiG-21U 24 on 12 November 2009, 1 crashed during training near city of Yen Bai, Senior Lt. Colonel Nguyễn văn Vinh (996 flight hours), Senior commanding officer of the 931st Wing, and Senior Lt. Captain Đặng hồng Vinh (351 flight hours), are the 2 pilots perished on this accident. Yen-Bai Airbase is the location among 2 training bases in the North Vietnam. The Mig-21U is a tandem twin-seats trainer from Yen-Bai Airbase, is among the last batch of fighter trainer variant from Mig-21, acquired from Soviet Union. There is also a Chinese version J-7 with the same characteristics. On 7 July 2010,1 crashed during training, near Ha Noi, the pilot has ejected. This plane took off from Gia Lam military airport. Aero L-39 Albatros Czechoslovakia Jet trainer L-39C 24 + 12 Additional 12 second hand L-39C obtained from Poland in 2003 - 2004. Yakovlev Yak-52 Soviet Union Prop trainer Yak-52 36 Only 16 planes still flying. Yakovlev Yak-130 Russia Jet trainer Yak-130 8 on order Transport Aircraft- Vietnam Airlines fleet could also be requisitioned Lockheed C-130B/E Hercules United States Medium transport Total
C-130B
C-130E 7
3
4 only C-130E may returned to service in 2012, not C-130B. Negotiation is on the way for new C-130J or even C-27J Spartan. Antonov An-26 Curl Soviet Union Transport An-26 48 Only 20 planes still flying. Antonov An-24 Coke Soviet Union/ Ukraine Regional airliner/Transport An-24 12 Transferred to Vietnam Airlines, and replacing by PZL M-28 Skytruck. Antonov An-38 Soviet Union Transport An-38 6 Transferred to Vietnam Airlines. PZL M-28 Skytruck Poland Transport PZL M-28 9+2 1 crashed, 2 on order, Przemyslowy Instytut Telekomunik-acji (PIT) MSC-400 maritime surveillance systems with PIT ASR-400 radars and PIT CCS-400 onboard command-and- control modules Antonov An-2 Colt Soviet Union STOL transport An-2 15 at least 5 fitted with Ub-16 rocket pods for use as FAC aircraft Yakovlev Yak-40 Codling Soviet Union VIP transport Yak-40 15 No longer in services. Maritime Patrol Aircraft Beriev Be-12 Mail Soviet Union Maritime Patrol Bomber/ASW Be-12 4 Transfer to Vietnam People's Navy in 2001 and decommissioned in 2009, by replacement of 8 Twin Otter contract. Reconnaissance Aircraft Antonov An-30 Clank Soviet Union Reconnaissance An-30 8 No longer in service. CASA C.212 Aviocar Spain Reconnaissance CASA C.212-400 3^[11]^[12]^[13] Swedish Space Corporation (SSC) MS6000 maritime surveillance system with Side-Looking Airborne Radar. Under Vietnam Marine Police control. Attack Helicopter Mil Mi-24 Hind Soviet Union Attack helicopter Mil Mi-24A/D 36 Transport Helicopter Mi-8 Hip Soviet Union Transport Mil Mi-8 66 Mi-17 Hip-H Soviet Union Transport Total
Mil Mi-17Sh
Mil Mi-172 69
27
18 Mi-6 Hook-A Soviet Union Heavy lift helicopter Mi-6 10-15 PZL W-3 Sokol Poland VIP helicopter/ SAR helicopter Total
PZL W-3S
PZL W-3RM 8
4
4 Kamov Ka-32S Helix-C Soviet Union SAR Helicopter Ka-32 5 Kamov Ka-25 Hormone Soviet Union ASW helicopter Ka-25 6 Ka-27 Helix Soviet Union ASW helicopter Ka-27 19 Eurocopter Dauphin France SAR helicopter SA-365 N2 5 From the Ministry of Defence Eurocopter Ecureuil France Light utility helicopter AS-350 B3 5 From the Ministry of Defence Aérospatiale Puma France Civilian transport SA-330J 9 From the Ministry of Defence Aérospatiale Super Puma France Civilian transport AS-332L2 7 From the Ministry of Defence. 1 Super Puma operated by Southern Service Flight Company (SFC) was lost in sea transportation mission for offshore platform in 2007. UH-1H Huey United States Utility UH-1H 15 Back to service since 2007. Miscellaneous Aircraft VNS-41 Vietnam Amphibious VNS-41 7-12? Domestic produced light plane type ULM with floatation devices. Never in production due to insufficient payload. M-400 UAV Vietnam UAV M-400 2; planned 12? No longer in service due to lack of GPS electronic components.

Arapahoe SG

araphoe,]

THAT IS HOW THEY WILL TREAT VIETNAM.U CANT EXPECT MORE THAN SOME RUSTY SHIPS AND TROOPSHIPS FROM FRANCE OR USA.

Can you give me example of how many countries that you know of right now that could move past 10 yrs of killing each other and within the same generation to return and sit down and talk?

It takes great humility for both side and just because one sit down and talk doesn't means its free for all. There is a different between defence policy and diplomacy.

Terminator Hitman SG

hmmmm........so why did they fight in the first place??me knows they are humans..imperfect as they are guided by greed and pride....and stupidity as well....

actually the viets could make their own helicopters n other stuff but their lack ofknowledge and intelligence makes it even hard to make a r/c toy plane even.

Arapahoe SG

The Good looks Bad but the "Bad" is Good.

OldBird69 SG

Regional geopolitical situation can make a country make 180 degree turn around and make friends with former enemies. With the rise of China, economically and militarily, the Vietnamese have to be practical and reach out to foreign powers for help in upgrading their military.

Relations with US has improved but not to the level of military sales, as far as I know. The US did not include Vietnam in the recent CARAT 2010 exercises. I recall Vietnam approached ST about 10 years ago to upgrade their M113 (leftover from South Vietnam) but the US, who have a say as to what happens to their military hardware, rejected ST's request, so no upgrades were made.

China has become very aggressive about the Spratly's and Paracels, as if it rightfully owns them all. There was even a "threatening glare" at George Yeo at the recent Asean-Regional Conference you can read here and here, where Yang Jiechi (Chinese FM) said, "China is a big country and other countries are small countries, and that's just a fact," he said, staring directly at Singapore's foreign minister, George Yeo, according to several participants at the meeting." Wah, machiam gangster/Big Brother.

Arapahoe SG

Below is the link to the original articles in Washingtonpost. It was unfortunate that the chinese general cross of word with the US had made references to Singapore and apparently Vietnam. although words was not mention but symbolism expression is part of chinese communication.

But as i highlighted in blacks............one of the many reasons behind this increase tension.....

By John Pomfret

Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, July 30, 2010

The Obama administration has adopted a tougher tone with China in recent weeks as part of a diplomatic balancing act in which the United States welcomes China's rise in some areas but also confronts Beijing when it butts up against American interests.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/29/AR2010072906416.html

The decision to confront China on the South China Sea dates back several months, after administration officials noticed that the sea -- an international waterway through which more than 50 percent of the world's merchant fleet tonnage passes each year -- had crept into the standard diplomatic pitter-patter about China's "core interests." In March, Assistant Minister of Foreign Affairs Cui Tiankai told two senior U.S. officials that China now views its claims to the 1.3 million-square-mile sea on par with its claims to Tibet and Taiwan, an island that China says belongs to Beijing

Arapahoe SG

Articles relates to this topics has been publish in New York times, Wall Street. Washington post.

The Wall Street Journal. - Battle of the South China Sea.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703977004575392631691738648.html

Terminator Hitman SG

BUT CHINA GETS ALL ITS IRON AND COAL FOR INDUSTRIES FROM AUSTRALIA.

SO AUSTRALIA IS KINDA SUPPORTING CHINA AND ITS ARROGANCE.THEY NEED THE COALSO BAD THAT CHINA COMMUNIST BUSINESSMEN HAVE CHINALCO MINING IN AUSTRALIA DIGGING UP MORECOAL TO MELT IRON TO BUILD WAR MACHINES IN CHINA.THEY CURRENTLY ARE EXPORTING BEEF TO CHINA STRANGELY.

THEY WOULD HAVE SOLD URANIUM TOO IF TH E AUSSIES WERE STUPID ENOUGH NOT TO NOTICE WHAT IT COULD DO.