Side-arm for the Infantry man

Sepecat SG

Carrying extra 5.56 ammo does not do you any good when your primary weapon fails. Thats why the side arm is called the back up weapon. It beats having to use your rifle as a club.

A Glock 19 weighs 850g loaded with 15 rounds.

storywolf SG

Originally posted by Sepecat:

Carrying extra 5.56 ammo does not do you any good when your primary weapon fails. Thats why the side arm is called the back up weapon. It beats having to use your rifle as a club.

A Glock 19 weighs 850g loaded with 15 rounds.

With modern rifles - if you have done proper maintenance & proper usage, there is very little chance of weapon failure. So far all cases we seen of IA have to do with poor maintenance, and user issues.

A glock 19 weight with 15 rounds = 850 + holster = 1 kg. usually a person who think he need side arm will also want extra clips - so total at least 1.3 Kg.

How extra weight and things on you - affect your movement, and performance in combat situation.That you may not understand till you full battle gear - do the obstacle course 7 times. Closer 5,6 & 7 round, then the effect of extra weight of a side-arm can be seen.

There is no right and wrong. As all depend on situation.

Unless you are swat or special force - which you go charging and involve in close quarter fighting often. For most other soldiers, a lot of fighting is done longer distance and behind cover and supported by the rest of the team. Thus even if weapon failure - usually have time to do IA or pull back.

If you think you are that unlucky to have your rifle fail on you, then most likely you be unlucky to be shot also.

Sepecat SG

Unfortunately, there is a peacetime and training mindset among us all & when we think primary weapon failure, we think mechanical failure due to poor maintenance , proper usage etc. The words "soldier proof" reminds us that weapons must be designed to take on the abuse in real war situation & weapons failure will be due to this factor, but not this factor alone.

Primary weapons failure also occurs when one gets shot at, which jhappens quite often when you are in a war zone. A grenade fragment or AK47 round may displace or damage your rifle. One may also get shot in one arm or hand which makes it impossible to work your rifle or conduct IA. In the meantime you are faced with the enemy 10 feet away. The only option is a quick draw with a pistol & squeezing off a few rounds at 10 feet. 15 rounds of 9mm is better than 0 rounds of 5.56mm.

Armies & soldiers who have real war experience are issue sidearms ( when their budgets are big enough to issue their combat front line troops in the warzone with them ) because primary weapons failure is a life & death issue exemplifiedby the close quarter urban battles experienced in Iraq & Afghanistan.

In a warzone, I will carry that extra 850g or 1 kg seal my enemies fate rather than mine.

the Bear SG

in a "warzone" you want to carry the extra "1kg" sidearm, you better be ready to carry another few kg of ammo...

think about that

fudgester SG

Translation By Centurion MBT

It is good to have a side arm as a back up in the event your main weapon jams.

The SIG Saur P228 weight is abt 850 g without ammo. Singapore technologies have created a Compact Personal Weapon (CPW) which is is just 1.5 kg unloaded and without accesories and has the capabilities to take in rounds of different calibers.

Weapon Statistics:

Length---350 mm (500 mm extended)

Barrel length--180 mm

The weight

+0.1 kg empty plastic mag

or 0.5 kg for fully loaded mag--30 x 9 mm rounds.

(Translater's notes: I don't like the idea of carrying a 2kg weapon to complement a 4kg weapon. My mobility will be weighed down at the expense of a backup firepower. I would prefer a hand gun provided I need it the first place.

Let me see.... you want your elite Singapore In-Line Skating Regiment to carry this, rite?

Anyway, I'm in two minds about having a sidearm. On one hand, it may make sense to have a secondary revolver as a backup for self-defence in case your main weapon fails.

On the other hand, its weight (inclusive of ammo and holster) is not exactly negligible and it adds extra heft to all the equipment that you're already carrying. Its accuracy is also of course crap compared to a good rifle (I've fired a P226 before).

But the way I see it, if you're down to using bayonet fighting or a secondary backup pistol, you're already screwed either way.

Meia Gisborn SG

If you're forced to carry a sidearm in addition to the standard issue rifle, why not go the whole nine yards and tote one of these:

(And in case you're wondering, yes, CZ does manufacture that bayonet attachment that mounts onto the standard accessory rail of their CZ 75-based pistols. )

SBS2601D SG

Carrying extra 5.56 ammo does not do you any good when your primary weapon fails. Thats why the side arm is called the back up weapon. It beats having to use your rifle as a club.

A Glock 19 weighs 850g loaded with 15 rounds.

A side-arm would be better for folks like pilots, who have to protect themselves if they get shot down in hostile territory. For infantries, it would be an extra burden.

Sepecat SG

In a warzone, I will definitely want to carry as much 5.56 ammo as I can carry. But I will also carry a sidearm as added insurance.

Carrying a sidearm does not seem to be a burden for US front line troops now fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan - unless they think they can trust their lives on an M4 to work 100 % of the time. I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste.

Pilots have no good alternative other than a side arm to protect themselves when shot down.

storywolf SG

In a warzone, I will definitely want to carry as much 5.56 ammo as I can carry. But I will also carry a sidearm as added insurance.

Pilots have no good alternative other than a side arm to protect themselves when shot down.

A good soldier must know how to maintenance his rifle and proper usage. Important is also knowning not to abuse your rifle.
The mindset of blaming the rifle for not "soldier proof" due to rough handing, fault is still with the user for putting his rifle in that position.

If someone manage to shoot or grenade thrown at you and hit your rifle? Again isn't that your fault for exposing yourself wrongly, poor fire movement & poor soldier skill.

If you get shot in one arm or hand that make it impossible to work your rifle, you would also be in no position to handle your pistol. If you know about pistol well, you would know that.

To you it does not seem a burden to frontline troops in iraq or Afghanistan . Is that the true picture ? Most of those troops with sidearms, are special forces, airborne , rangers, SAS, commandos .... those are special train soldiers which are more physically fit, thus extra weight may not burden them like normal soldiers.

We also have to consider asia soldiers are smaller size then western counter part. Note we are talking about side-arm for infantry - which is foot soldiers not special forces or commandos.

Hell we have so many soldiers already getting heat stroke and other issues. Frankly adding a extra weapon may kill them before they even reach the battle field. Think there be more cases of pistol accidently shooting ownself or other friendiness then cases of pistol saving one life.

storywolf SG

In a warzone, I will definitely want to carry as much 5.56 ammo as I can carry. But I will also carry a sidearm as added insurance.

Pilots have no good alternative other than a side arm to protect themselves when shot down.

Please show me picture of own troopers carring P226 in timor leste ?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Personally I have no issue with carrying a sidearm, you don't need to haul a lot of ammo for it, one or two extra clips would be good in a pinch. I don't think our soldiers will suffer a big performance drop from it, if that was the concern I remember there was some talk in here about how body armour was useless because it added weight, and that's a lot of extra weight.

Ultimately there's no right or wrong, it depends on what you want, but I don't think our average soldier is so weak that he can't haul an extra pistol.

If you are really iffy about weight then go get a compact pistol, that should put your mind at ease.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

If you get shot in one arm or hand that make it impossible to work your rifle, you would also be in no position to handle your pistol. If you know about pistol well, you would know that.

Erm, wrong. You can't adopt a two handed stance for your pistol but you still can fire it one handed, and with a lot more sucess then trying to shoot your rifle one handed.

In any case the value of a sidearm has been well known in history, the trusty Colt .45 was a staple of the American G.I. and this was considering he had to lug an battle rifle that is a lot heavier then our current assualt rifles.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

CPW can help u play trick

If you are surrounded ,u can pretend surrender by giving up your rifle.

When the enemy come close to search you (hopefully they will not

shoot u first),then u can spray them with CPW in one go!!

30 rounds is very harmful,if u still have so much ammo!!

Of course,u have hide your CPW nicely!!

Barring the fact that it is extremely difficult to hide something like a CPW properly and then yet be able to take it out easily, doing such a thing is also considered a war crime under the Geneva conventions, something that you can be hung for.

Sepecat SG

To Storywolf

o good soldier must know how to maintenance his rifle and proper usage. Important is also knowning not to abuse your rifle.
The mindset of blaming the rifle for not "soldier proof" due to rough handing, fault is still with the user for putting his rifle in that position.

Please do not put words in my mouth & read each word I posted carefully.

You just made yourself the perfect example of what I said of a person with a ”peacetime and training mindset….” by stating in the above paragraph about weapons failure due to maintenance , improper usage etc.

I said that the above is only one factor, while the other is when your primary weapon is disabled for another reason.

If someone manage to shoot or grenade thrown at you and hit your rifle? Again isn't that your fault for exposing yourself wrongly, poor fire movement & poor soldier skill.

Hey, wake up !! The best soldiers in the world also get shot and killed.

If you get shot in one arm or hand that make it impossible to work your

rifle you would also be in no position to handle your pistol. If you know

about pistol well, you would know that.

There are many real war accounts of soldiers being wounded in an arm or hand & being able to fend off or kill attackers using a pistol using one hand

And sorry, but I know about pistols because I fire them. I can assure you that you only require one hand !

That’s your peacetime mindset setting in again.

In a real war, an enemy bullet does not distinguish between special forces or normal infantry. As an infantryman you better be fit to carry extra ammo & for me a sidearm too to ensure that when I have a primary weapons failure I will be able to shoot my attacker even at point blank using a pistol strapped to my leg.

We also have to consider asia soldiers are smaller size then western counter part. Note we are talking about side-arm for infantry - which is foot soldiers not special forces or commandos.

Nobody is forcing you to carry a side arm. But please don’t borrow mine when you come face to face with an attacker charging at you with a bayonet and you happen to have an urgent need to perform IA.

Hell we have so many soldiers already getting heat stroke and other issues. Frankly adding a extra weapon may kill them before they even reach the battle field. Think there be more cases of pistol accidently shooting ownself or other friendiness then cases of pistol saving one life.

This is the thinking of a switched off soldier & also you are clearly speaking for yourself. You definitely did not go to the Army ; didn’t the Army teach you how to avoid heatstroke , not to accidently discharge weapons, train you to be fighting fit etc ?????

Originally posted by Sepecat:

o show Please show me picture of own troopers carring P226 in timor leste ?

Read carefully - I said “ I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste” . Ask Touchstone2000 for the picture as he mentioned it.

pigsticker SG

in a war, probably there should be a few spare rifles left over by their previous owners who have gone to meet their maker...

in the event of IA, just grab someone's else rifle and start firing... yeah, it's not zeroed, but it's better than nothing..

Sepecat SG

If your primary weapon is beyond repair, clearly use whatever is at hand.

But , the rationale for the backup sidearm is that you can use it instantly when the situation arises.

the Bear SG

Meia Gisborn SG

That's a very impressive baseball bat!

storywolf SG

to Sepecat :

"peacetime & training mindset"?
Great if base on your theory just blame unusable rifles or stoppages all to war !

Wake up Best Soldiers in the world also get shot and killed ?
You choose to talk about those that got killed , why not talk about those that live think more survive then those killed.

Many real war accounts of soldiers being wounded in an arm & still able to ...... ? Yeap some are, other don't ... those who survive can tell their verison. Why don't you tell a few of those which soldier shot still able to use their primary weapons.

Most of those troops with sidearms, are special forces, airborne , rangers, SAS, commandos .... because in most army they have extra budgets to issue sidearms and are train to use them.
The point is simple - they are issue and train with sidearms, other ordinary soldiers are usually not this is fact not mindset. Yes an enemy bullet does not distinguish between special forces or normal infantry. But then why you call those folk special forces ? You call them that because they are fitter, better train & better equipped, that why they are issue with extra side-arms when a lot of ordinary soldiers are not.

Didn’t the Army teach you how to avoid heatstroke, not to accidently discharge weapons, train you to be fighting fit?
Based on the last few years of casualties in the army and funny videos posted on youtube - obviously you may have learn, but not a lot of others.

You said “ I believe that even our own troopers carried the SIG226 when in Timor Leste”.
Ok i got you - we believe we have gundams too !!!

Sepecat SG

Dear Storywolf,

Firstly , I wish that you keep your story telling to yourself.

You are not expressing yourself clearly in your first lline. What are you trying to tell us ? Anyway , note that switched on soldiers always go to war with usable rifles. Switched off soldiers like you with your peacetime mindset cant tell the diff between a usable & unusable rifle

Exactly right, the ones who live are the ones carryingthe side arms & living to tell the tale because the side arms saved them .

To be continued.............

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