Why USN Littoral Combat Ship Freedom looks not so stealth?

fudgester SG

My English not so good lah.

The culture of US defense and politicians are Money and politics first.

If they are looking for the interest of the nations and their soldiers,

they would change or re designed their old aged rifle lah.

Look at your HP and computers.

How much it has been changed since 10 years ago,not to mention

20 yeas ago?How is the US legendary rifle has been changed

in the past 10 or 20 years?

10 or 20 years?

Dude, you ever tried looking at our AMX-13 SM1 tanks?

Or our Challenger-class submarines?

Want to guess how old they are?

omega21 SG

I hope he could tell us what a LCS fitted with

anti -mine package will react, if a enemy sub or

ship approaching it in few hours.

Can the LCS Captain press the PAUSE button?

I think the LCS won't be totally useless against other threats even when it's carrying only one specialised module. Seriously, I don't think the US Navy is that stupid. It's gotta have some other defensive capabilities. Not very powerful, for sure, because if you wanna specialise with themodules, you have to give up other stuff like huge racks of missiles, but I like to think that the US Navy isn't suicidal.

For example, if you look at the graphic posted by lionnoisy, the LCS has a helo hangar with space for Seahawk helicopters. Those can deal with some surface threats (eg small 3rd world nation missile boats) by firing anti-ship missiles. Those helos can hunt subs too. (Worst come to worst, there's that gun in front. Maybe can scare people away.)

Besides, I think the LCS isn't gonna work alone; it'll probably deployed in a aircraft carrier battle group, or escorted by crusiers or whatnot. Also, a group of LCS with different capibilities could well complement each other. For example, we can have one anti-surface ships, two anti-sub ships (because subs are worrying) and one mine ship as a composite battle group that can take care of itself.

So the concept is more or less okay in my book. The only thing is, yes, the turnaround time for the modules and the logistics will be a headache.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

This time he is getting pretty funny, he's trying to suggest that the RSN can trump the USN...

Lionnoisy as usual is putting up a lot of smoke and mirrors and showing us pretty much how little he knows about the subject, the LCS was never intended to be a jack-of-all-trades and master of none but instead a modular platform by which a navy can use to perform many different tasks that would require several different classes of ships of similar tonnage.

For example, instead of having many different classes of ships for various duties, the USN can now configure each and every system to its requirements. Some rouge nation mining international waters? Instead of waiting for days to cart a minesweeper over, you can save plenty of time by simply configuring one of your LCS to that task.

Additionally, what makes lionnoisy think that only one configuration of LCS will be operating alone? In typical naval operations you will have several different roles of LCS will be operating together.

As usual, he uses his "what if miracle naval ships appear next to a single LCS out of nowhere nonsense" that he likes to use so often, which simply does not happen in reality due to the way the USN operates. The only foolish one here it seems, is lionnoisy.

Simply put, lionnoisy might as well ask why that our SAF soldiers doing guard duty are only configured for one task, and that is anti-personnel. What if, one day, anytime an enemy tank suddenly appears right in front of them and all they have is their SAR-21?!! So he better suggest that they carry a MATADOR while prowing that is. What if enemy ROFLcopter suddenly appear? Our SAF soldiers better carry SAR-21 GL, MATADOR, and Igla manpad sams then and go about their rounds.

Pure and utter rubbish, just like him trying to suggest F-18s will be launched off "mini-cvs"

ROFLCOPTER!

If anything, lionnoisy seems to miss out that the LCS actually gives the USN great savings in terms of training, logistics and maintenence when it comes to operating one flexible ship type that can be configured for multiple tasks in response to the situtation as opposed to having a fleet with many different ship types that are stuck with you more or less for the duration of the war. In any case, note the idea of the LCS was to create a flexible and CHEAP class to run in lieu of using more expensive systems for tasks for which they would be overkill.

So what can I say about lionnoisy's hu-ha in here about the LCS?

Blown clear out of the water.

Say, for some reason lionnoisy is very quiet about how our Formidible stacks up against the USN Zumwalt class destroyers.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Look at your HP and computers.

How much it has been changed since 10 years ago,not to mention

20 yeas ago?How is the US legendary rifle has been changed

in the past 10 or 20 years?

Look at our SAR-21 that the basic SAF soldier still uses.

How has it changed in the last 10 years since it's conception when so many advanced small-arms systems have come out?

Even the US M-16 has gone through numerous upgrades and actually have more advanced sighting systems then the SAR-21 the SAF trooper uses.

And for your information, some of our units still stuck with the US legendary rifle that is several versions below the current legendary version that the US is using.

So what's all this promise about the SAR-21 being the rifle the help the SAF into the 21st century? It's only 2008 and already it's falling behind.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

I hope he could tell us what a LCS fitted with

anti -mine package will react, if a enemy sub or

ship approaching it in few hours.

Can the LCS Captain press the PAUSE button?

I hope you can tell us what a RSN Minesweeper

will react, if a enemy sub or

ship approaching it in few hours.

Can RSN captain press the PAUSE button?

Use your common sense, the idea of LCS is not unlike the idea of modular small arms, in which one common platform can be configured for different roles from micro-SMG all the way to LMG. Not unlike the FN2000 or the Tavor.

An anti-mine LCS is not going to be operating alone without conventional cover from ASW or conventionally configured ships. The idea, which seems to be lost out on you not because it's hard to understand but because you just insist on trying to turn white to black and ending up not only failing that but making yourself look bad, is that the LCS was intended to be a platform that can be configured to multiple tasks, greatly saving on operating costs as well as affording flexibility instead of having to cart in multiple ships of different classes for one role.

For some reason this logic seems to be lost on you, who keep insisting that for some reason, all LCS operate alone and will somehow stumble across something they are not equipped for.

Can you push the pause button before you make anymore mistakes?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

In fact, it seems that the only reason you are trying to bash the LCS is because you need to find something to feel good about the RSN instead of having any real logical case to make against it.

This is not too unlike the kind of people we meet who criticise other systems not because they are really flawed, but because they few threatened that these things will be better or more popular then what they like. Your nonsense in the SAR-21 vs Tavor thread, and now here, is pretty much a shining example of that.

You are like a six-year old.

16/f/lonely SG

Don't quite see the need to compare both platforms since they fulfill different requirements by their respective navies.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Don't quite see the need to compare both platforms since they fulfill different requirements by their respective navies.

Well apparently some kid in here sees the need to make a Singapore vs. everything issue of just about anything.

16/f/lonely SG

Well apparently some kid in here sees the need to make a Singapore vs. everything issue of just about anything.

As fas as I can see, the modular design started way back, from the Spruance class, although this is really more advanced now. The Spraunce lay-out was used for the Kidd, Ticonderoga and the Arleigh Burke.

The advantage is not so much in the interchangeability of the weapons suites, but rather to keep in line with the "cost-saving" measures. Imagine you don't have to design different hulls for different suites but you can use the same hull for different suites. That's the concept behind modular designs.

omega21 SG

Yeah, I concur. That's exactly what I said, too. LCS gives flexibility. It's not meant to be some 'supership'.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

For some reason lionnoisy makes a big who-ha when the Yanks take this technology further and actually implement hulls that can be configured as an when they are needed in short order. But oh wait, he's more known for having more noise then knowledge on the subject matter.

What is funnier is that he's trying to paint this as a major disadvantage of the class when by any measure it is actually its strongest point. As opposed to having to constantly operate ships of differing types or finding a shortfall in certain hull classes when a certain need arises, the USN can now configure it's flexible hulls to tailor to their needs as and when they need, allowing them force-to-task-suitability that is otherwise not possible with having multiple redundant ship types.

What is pure comedy he misses out the entire point of the concept and instead relies soley on his "what if, anyday, anytime" a single lone LCS faces a task that it is not configured for?

Might as well ask the same question of our Formidible frigates. What if one day, "anyday, anytime" our Formidibles find themselves in a minefield and realize that they are not an anti-mining ship?

What rubbish.

Oh I am sure the largest navy in the world with the biggest budget and most powerful sensor network would somehow send out lone littorial ships with absolutely no support whatsoever to get surprised by the enemy.

The greater rubbish is that he tries to say that 24 hours to change the ship's role is too much due to how "quickly" war can break out. Not only does he not explain how on earth this war is breaking out, he simply assumes as he does before, that mysterous stealth ships and planes will suddenly appear out of nowhere and show the "unsuitability" of whatever system he happens to fix his illogical gaze upon.

Seriously... which power in the world is going to try to "surprise" the USN? And which navy goes to war within 24 hours? To sail the fleet to any location takes months of prep in harbour as well as actual sailing to location. If the LCS is going to war, the USN would have had plenty of time to prepare it for the intended task.

Might as well say that all citizens in Singapore need to have a SAR-21 by their side at all times because "anyday, anytime" war can break out and going to our camps and drawing our weapons will take too much time.

Seriously, this guy is totally pwned in here.

lionnoisy SG

i do hope any navy get plenty of time to prepare for actions--

be it a war,peace keeping or dissater relief!!

But RSN shall not count on this 'PAUSE' mind set.

We are not playing computer game where u can

press pause button whenever u like.

This is a bloody war and we have only ONE chance.Full stop.

Ask Kuwait people then u know why even SG baby shall

be armed,like MY politician said!!

How many days of notice that Georgia and Russia get

in the recent crisis?

I dunt have a crystal ball,bro!!

Janes Fighting Ship 2008/2009

The comments in Ex Summary looks not so look for this

first in class ship!!

But Danish Navy find this idea works??

http://www.navalteam.dk/ships/std_flex_concept.aspx

Questions

The biggest block for human being to advance is not to

challenge authority.USN is very big.So what!!

This dunt mean everything they do is right.

Look at their sub prime crisis then u know the quality

of their leaders.

Their concept is out to sea by group.So u cant find air defense

modules in LCS.What if the AA ships cant work?Then u put whole

group at the mercy of enemy aircraft!!

I like SG'' 3 functions in 1 platform'' Frigate which can AA,ASW and ASUW.

It can be independent any where and anytime,without other platfroms

providing protections.This is true flexibilty!!

Besides it can act as Combat Center for other sea,land and air platforms.

I dunt mean it can defend any attacks.But they have to calculate the risks

if they want to attack.At least the 3 functions are there and can work!!

They know our mainteance level.Right?

Only 3 million citizens.What to do?

1.Right time and right place---Danish Navy said 8 hours.LCS contract document

said not more than 4 days.One day is not a obligation.

Even it is a obligation,what can DOD do with the giant contractor

of LM and GD if they fail to deliver?

If situation permit the time for right module to be delivered and installed?

Can the module be delivered at the right place and the right time?

2.Escorts

In game ,u can assume u control the whole theater.

In reality,u can risk the lives of any cresw.

Can u control the route of delivery,be it by sea or by air,

or even by sub?How many escort u need to accompany delivery platform?

Dunt forget u also have to deliver modules crews to operate

the modules.There are 7 main modules for ASW,MIW and ASUW.

There is CORE CREW,not more than 40,to operate LSC.

I cant imagne how u transfer heavy modules,which is in 20

feet container or alike and the modules crews,from a ship

or heli.in a rough sea and bad weather?

After the op,u also have to remove and transfer the module container

and the Modules Crew back to waiting area.

Initially,USN think of shore pier or sea pier for delivering

installing the modules.

u can read from link 4 below that the top brass in USN said if one of

the module cant work.Then it is ok.

pl read link 5 for opposition views .

references

1 http://lexingtoninstitute.org/docs/lcs_final.pdf

2. http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/assets/14170.pdf

3 http://search.military.com/search/milcom.html?words=Littoral+Combat+Ship&x=16&y=13

4 http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/lcs/LCS_Forum1.htm

5 www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,NI_LCS_0203,00.html

gaoxingdcf07 SG

wah piang eh

when u see RSN got 'pause' want ???

when the tsunami hits,SAF is ready to send out humantarian aid...

you got see SAF say cannot when the tsunami hit indo ???

less than 24hrs,SAF send a LST and equiments into bandah aceh to help the locals to cope.. and also send another 2 LST to the area... Total 3 LST was deployed

SAF also got send C130 to phuket to work with the thais to help its ppl...

please lah,when u want to create threads like this,plz ownself edit and add comments to your thread... You cannot summarise the artical ????

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

lionnoisy is obviously talking rubbish again.

You talk so much about needing to be on the spot all the time and no time taken to change stuff, but do you even have any idea how many days it actually takes to reach the spot? There is more then enough time to change the module of the ship in safe waters.

What makes you think that the USN will not operate a significant number of different LCS types in the first place? The main advantage of this system is that it allows in field changes of ship roles, a task that is previously impossible if you sail into the area (which will take days anyway)

In game ,u can assume u control the whole theater.

In reality,u can risk the lives of any cresw.

Can u control the route of delivery,be it by sea or by air,

or even by sub?How many escort u need to accompany delivery platform?

Dunt forget u also have to deliver modules crews to operate

the modules.There are 7 main modules for ASW,MIW and ASUW.

There is CORE CREW,not more than 40,to operate LSC.

I cant imagne how u transfer heavy modules,which is in 20

feet container or alike and the modules crews,from a ship

or heli.in a rough sea and bad weather?

Trying to invent problems again?

Unfortunately while you try to spout problems, in reality these are already issues that are long solved.

Do you know that in practice the refit and resupply of SSNs in war will actually take place out in the open sea with submarine tenders instead of having to sail back to port?

Obviously the issues with refitting and resupplying ships out at sea have how been solved since the USN started doing this decades back. What is an LCS modules and crew transfer to them?

An LCS module is chicken feet as opposed to the task of needing to load explosive ADCAPS and Harpoons onto a low-in-the-water SSN as opposed to a surface combatant.

You are just trying to invent problems. I might as well say our SAR-21's reliance on batteries means that it's useless in the field once bad weather prevents the SAF from supplying us with our AA batteries to let our LADs work.

Their concept is out to sea by group.So u cant find air defense

modules in LCS.What if the AA ships cant work?Then u put whole

group at the mercy of enemy aircraft!!

I like SG'' 3 functions in 1 platform'' Frigate which can AA,ASW and ASUW.

It can be independent any where and anytime,without other platfroms

providing protections.This is true flexibilty!!

What makes you think the AA ships can't work? Suddenly get a lionnoisy computer virus?

Isn't the same logic going to apply to our own Formidibles if you want to mysteriously dream up nonsense problems for the LCS?

Our Formidibles are not a picture of true flexibility, it is a jack of all trades but master of none. Basically put the problem with multi-role ships of such small tonnage is that you are trying to cram multiple different roles into a single hull, meaning that in battle the Formidible actually only brings 1/3 of it's tonnage to put out into firepower into any given role at any one time while a specialized LCS can put in far more.

This is not flexibility, but simply old fashioned design. Our Formidibles are practically useless when faced with other forms of warfare such as anti-mine, but the LCS can simply be configured to that role.

The biggest block for human being to advance is not to

challenge authority.USN is very big.So what!!

This dunt mean everything they do is right.

Really, so how come your stand in Speaker's Corner is not to challange authority? What a big joke.

The biggest block for lionnoisy being to advance is not to use good logic and facts.

If you want to convince people that the LCS is such a bad idea, then use logic and facts to do it.

So how come so far all your logic and facts have produced things like ships needing to teleport to areas of trouble at any given time, launching F-18s off "mini-cvs", crashing FANTAIL into things, carrying SAR-21 by one handle in battle like a handbag and inline skate force?

LOL

So you think the USN is going to operate LCS without any configuration at all times until times of war? I think you're not thinking at all.

Basically and I say this again, the LCS is supposed to give the USN an inexpensive, littorial ship to operate with the capacity to change its roles as and when needed to reduce on having redundant hull types or needing to build more ships to fufill a specialized role.

If you don't want to accept this or think it's an unworkable concept for the simple reason the RSN or ST does not have it and it's threatening the imaginary popularity or "superiority" of the small brown water navy of a certain island nation then it's really your loss, you are the one who needs to constantly decieve yourself and remain blind and ignorant, choosing only to see the world through the "anything SAF does is good and if other militaries perform better or have better ideas they are flawed and stupid ideas because I need to feel good about my own SAF" glasses.

Obviously all this is lost out on you who sits in one corner sucking your lollipop and repeating the same, debunked and lously points over and over again.

I don't think the USN makes good choices all the time, but quite obviously, their rate of making good choices far exceeds your own, lionnoisy.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Basically put you are trying to come up with lame excuses to slam the LCS when anybody with basic logic or knowledge will see that most of your points are rubbish.

You said forums are to inform, educate and entertain. How come then you not only fail to inform or educate yourself after three years in here, but seem to become worse, ending up seeming more uninformed and uneducated?

The only thing you seem to do great in here is in entertaining others with your repeated mistakes.

lionnoisy SG

no time to answer so many questions now.

i want to ask experts here do we really need mine hunter

and mine sweeper made of timber or wood?

USN mine hunters are all made of timber!!

If so,why LCS can turn to mine hunter with metal hull?

Is the risk worth the benefits??

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

no time to answer so many questions now.

i want to ask experts here do we really need mine hunter

and mine sweeper made of timber or wood?

USN mine hunters are all made of timber!!

If so,why LCS can turn to mine hunter with metal hull?

Is the risk worth the benefits??

No time to answer? More like you cannot answer.

You obviously have no idea wha you are talking about.

You ask questions it seems not to learn stuff, but try to find problems.

I notice when no problems are found you don't really show any more interest in the topic, but when the slightest possibility of any problem exposes yourself, you will just keep roaring and spamming the forum with nonsense.

BTW, there are many metal hulled minesweepers, so this is nothing new.

New to you prehaps.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Also how come you can search high and low in the net for problems, but don't devote the same amount of energy towards finding the obvious solutions that should be easier for you to find?

Degaussing

Degaussing is the process of decreasing or eliminating an unwanted magnetic field. It is named after Carl Friedrich Gauss, an early researcher in the field of magnetism. Due to magnetic hysteresis it is generally not possible to reduce a magnetic field completely to zero, so degaussing typically induces a very small "known" field referred to as bias.

Degaussing ship's hulls

The term was first used by (then) Cmdr. Charles F. Goodeve, RCNVR, during World War II while trying to counter the German magnetic mines that were playing havoc with the British fleet. The mines detected the increase in magnetic field when the steel in a ship concentrated the Earth's magnetic field over it. Goodeve developed a number of systems to induce a small "N-pole up" field into the ship to offset this effect, meaning that the net field was the same as background. Since the Germans used the gauss as the unit of the strength of the magnetic field in their mines' triggers (this was not yet a standard measure), Goodeve referred to the various processes to counter the mines as degaussing. The term became a common word.

The original method of degaussing was to install electromagnetic coils into the ships, known simply as coiling. In addition to being able to continually bias the ship, coiling also allowed the bias field to be reversed in the southern hemisphere, where the mines were set to detect "S-pole down" fields. British ships, notably cruisers and battleships, were well protected by about 1943.

Installing such special equipment was, however, far too expensive and difficult to service all ships that would need it, so the navy developed an alternative called wiping (devised by Goodeve), which simply dragged a large electrical cable along the side of the ship with about 2000 amps flowing through it. This induced the proper field into the ship in the form of a slight bias. It was originally thought that the pounding of the sea and the ship's engines would slowly randomize this field, but in testing this was found not to be a real problem. A more serious problem was later realized: as a ship travels through the Earth's magnetic field it will slowly pick up that field, counteracting the effects of the degaussing. From then on captains were instructed to change direction as often as possible to avoid this problem. Nevertheless the bias did wear off eventually, and ships had to be degaussed on a schedule. Smaller ships continued to use wiping through the war.

After the war the capabilities of the magnetic fuses were greatly improved, by detecting not the field itself, but changes in it. This meant a degaussed ship with a magnetic "hot spot" would still set off the mine. Additionally, the precise orientation of the field was also measured, something a simple bias field could not remove, at least for all points on the ship. A series of ever-increasingly complex coils were introduced to offset these effects, with modern systems including no fewer than three separate sets of coils to reduce the field in all axes.

lionnoisy SG

http://lmlcsteam.com/photo_gallery/sea_trials/index.html

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

http://lmlcsteam.com/photo_gallery/sea_trials/index.html

Hey lionnoisy, how come you suddenly so quiet about degaussing metal hulls for demining work?

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