US Congress' report on M4,a fading rifle?MY licensed to make

last SG · 2008-11-13T14:32:27+00:00

If we really wanted to be cynical about it, a small flight of B-52 bombers with nuclear tipped cruise missiles would have wasted Singapore without too much o...

lionnoisy SG

Additions 14.11.2008

Singapore shall not bid for M4 replacement!!

ST Engineering ie VT-System ,shall consider the political cost if SAR 21

selected by US armed forces to replace M4.

If SAR 21 is selected and Yankees use it to kill some

one,be it civilians ,armed forces or militants,

people around the world remember that the rifle

is designed by Singapore!

This connection is not in the interest of Singapore.

pl read 14.11.2008 my post

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M4 carbine has been a hot topic.Many have agrued if this shall

be replaced.But no one can decide for US Army,except the wise

wo/men in US Congress.

The tone in this recent Congress report sounds not so good,

right at the very beginning of the Summary:

The M-4 carbine is the Army’s primary individual combat weapon for infantry
units. The M-4 uses a direct gas impingement system that blows carbon from the fired cartridge back into the weapon’s receiver, which can lead to weapon malfunctions.

Then inside the content:

Open Competition for an M-4 Replacement.

Some small arms analysts have
detected “a growing frustration among arms makers that the Army is wedded to a single company.”26 Congress has also asked the Army and DOD to study and report on the feasibility and advisability of conducting an open competition for carbine-type weapons and to develop a long-term, competitive strategy for small arms. If such an effort is undertaken by the Army and the other Services, some might argue that lessons learned from past Army small arms initiatives such as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon (OICW) program and, more recently, USSOCOM’s Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) program, would facilitate such a competition and procurement.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RS22888.pdf

The Army’s M-4 Carbine: Background and
Issues for Congress
Andrew Feickert
Specialist in Military Ground Forces
Foreign Affairs, Defense, and Trade Division

Order Code RS22888
May 30, 2008

This is interesting to monitor the progress in the development

of this possible replacement.The M4 is seen by many as

the best in the world.However,look at hand phone,and

computer.How much improvements have been made in the past decade?

And the improvement in M4?How many in the past 10 years?

Malaysia gets license to make M 4

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2007/11/5/nation/19381084&sec=nation

KUALA LUMPUR: Malaysia has a licence to manufacture M4 carbine assault rifles locally and the potential to export them to other countries in the future, said Defence Minister Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak.

“We are buying the firearms from the United States but have the licence to produce them now through a local company,” he said yesterday.

Najib, who is also the Deputy Prime Minister, said they decided to go for the United States-made M4 Carbine as the Steyr rifle had problems because of its limited research and development technology. The Steyrs have been used for 15 years.

“The M4 Carbines are more suitable, effective and have extra capacity compared with the Steyrs.

“We took this decision as we want to enable our soldiers to be soldiers of the future, equipped with the latest modern technology,” he said during question time with student leaders after closing the Overseas Umno Club's leadership course.

The US Congress, he said, had approved the sale of the rifles, which should be delivered in the near future.

Last year, Najib had presented a letter of intent to SME Ordnance Sdn Bhd (SMEO) for the procurement of 14,000 rifles in a RM70mil deal.

SMEO had signed a contract with Colt Defence LLC for the weapons.

While it was not practical to produce all military needs locally, Najib said the country was doing well as it was producing its own Offshore Patrol Vessels and was in the process of producing unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) locally.

“UAVs are the way forward in war tactics and many armies are using them as this will help reduce the number of casualties,” he added.

i post the article for i am afraid the link cant work.

Many threads in this weapons

http://www.sgforums.com/topics/search?q=M4&commit=Go&type=topics

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Wow, our "busy" lionnoisy cannot finish his own threads on Australian Aegis Cruisers and American LCS, saying he's too "busy" and has "fighting spirit" but can yet start another long and pointless post that nobody bothers to read.

Lol, he sounds like the kind of people that keeps buying lots of 4D and gambles heavily despite losing in every one of them for the reason that he's too lazy and afraid to improve himself by actually educating himself on the military matters instead of using them as a cheap trick to raise up an instant "this is why Singapore/SAF" is better vibe that nobody even bothers with in the first place.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

I am amazed you even bother to mention this, given this was already known since Vietnam.

The direct impingement (M-16) system offers far better recoil then a long stroke piston (sar-21) or a similar system, hence offering a weapon using it far better accuracy. FIY, a properly maintained DI system will perform reasonably but it requires more care then a piston system.

As far as systems go pistons are more practical for the soldier, hence most, if not all of the considered M-16 replacements work on this.

This is interesting to monitor the progress in the development

of this possible replacement.The M4 is seen by many as

the best in the world.However,look at hand phone,and

computer.How much improvements have been made in the past decade?

And the improvement in M4?How many in the past 10 years?

You mean you learnt nothing from the past few threads on this issue and you even bother to ?

There has been plenty of improvements to the M4 in the recent decade, the average M4/M16 the grunt uses will outshoot the SAR-21 basic/carbine anyday, with the exception of reliability which is already a long known issue and the reason they want to replace it.

Do you really want to see what an M4 can be modded to?

How many improvements in the SAR-21 over the past 9 years since 1999? How come the Israelis can come up with so much stuff for their Tavor and we're still messing around with the SAR-21 basic for our troops which has some serious issues like night fighting reliance on the LAD?

Once again you need to be reminded, but I suspect that you simply do not want to learn this fact simply because you are too stubborn to accept this, is that the yanks could easily switch to some other weapon back then like the SCAR, the XM8 or what have you not but the simple reason they have held out for so long was because they are waiting for something truly revolutionary to replace their legacy systems when the technology matures with as opposed to simply switching to something that is just slightly better.

And of course there's the piston M4/M16 as well that solves the reliablity issues and makes it as reliable as ARs like the SAR-21, but at the expense of accuracy.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Basically you are trying to bring up an old topic that has already been discussed before, and not long ago and ended with your defeat as well.

How come you seem to learn nothing at all? Bad memory or just plain stubborn?

I suggest you get more creative when trying to find new topics to pinpoint. In fact you are becoming amusing, you seem to be mostly incapable of posting a decent and honest topic in any forum electing instead to post just about everything in the "what's wrong with this country/military" vein filled with shallow and childish questions that could be answered with a bit of common sense, not to mention having absolutely no effect on whatever country or military you have targeted. It is a style that is repeated, old and boring, and the fun in these topics usually come from how badly you get owned.

And funnier you reuse your old and debunked arguments again a while after your defeat, thinking that apparently they will work this time.

gaoxingdcf07 SG

M4 can mod into many types of varients as show in the poster above...

as above,M4/M16 is generally quite reliable for most ppl who have used M16/M4 other than the IA because of the magazines..

So what is the big hoo-ha over that our neighbours are licensed to make...

Man!x SG

damn it, our neighbours got more stylo weapons than us.. SAR21 looks like a sci-fi toy...

Ariedartin SG

There are M16/M4 replacements out on the market that solve its direct impingement problem by replacing it with a short-stroke piston system, but that's about the most major of the fixes they've done. Others of course include hammer-forged barrels, free-floating barrels, structural redesigns, and the such, but these so far only prove that the original design needs improvements, not complete replacement.

storywolf SG

Those are just attachment to the rifle - not really much of a improvement !!! They are attachment that can be attach to other rifles - even SAR-21 !

Can someone advice on the basic M4 issued to the ordinary soldiers of US - i don't think they come with any scope even.

Sepecat SG

You cannot attach the range of accessories that are available to M4 to other rifles such as SAR-21 unless the rifle is modified accordingly to accept these. However, the M4 has evolved over the years ( due to the US military's needs thru combat experience ) to the current situation where an M4 can be tailored to suit the various combat situations.

There is no rifle system that I know of that can give the user such a wide range of accesories.

I think M4s with scopes are only issued to front line combat soldiers. Ordinary soldiers still get M16s & not M4s - someone please confirm.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

I think M4s with scopes are only issued to front line combat soldiers. Ordinary soldiers still get M16s & not M4s - someone please confirm.

I don't know who gave anybody the idea that the US military only uses M4s across the board when most of the ordinary grunts use the M16. But they are basically the same thing save for the fact that M16 shoots further and hits harder.

As for scopes, it depends on where you are, but the idea is to get the good stuff to the front lines.

Can someone advice on the basic M4 issued to the ordinary soldiers of US - i don't think they come with any scope even.

Depends on their unit, but the push is towards modular mounting systems. The ordinary US Marine certainly gets far better sights then the ordinary SAF soldier gets with the SAR-21.

The USMC uses the M16A4, which is a modular system as well, and the US Army using that for some of it's units as well.

Here are examples of what the ordinary US troops in Iraq are using:

ceecookie SG

How about using the known Automatik Kalashnikov 74 assault rifle?

Man!x SG

whats the standard sights attachment issued to US Army/Marines? i see EoTechs, Trijicons, even different butt stocks, light attachments, infra-red/laser pointers. Self purchased items? Will never happen in SAF unless the person gung ho enough...

spencer99 SG

The M4 is suppose to be an interim solution for the US... the ultimate aim is that futuristic OCSW or something.... the hybrid weapon which shoot grenades and a small caliber direct fire weapon....

interestingly.. the malaysian armed forces is ordering 14,000 units, that is not enough to equip the entire armed forces...

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

The M4 is suppose to be an interim solution for the US... the ultimate aim is that futuristic OCSW or something.... the hybrid weapon which shoot grenades and a small caliber direct fire weapon....

interestingly.. the malaysian armed forces is ordering 14,000 units, that is not enough to equip the entire armed forces...

Well you know lionnoisy and his usual style of can't see anything but the present for the militaries of other countries ignoring what that will likely arise in the future and projecting fantastic (and sometimes impossible) abilities for our own, because for some reason, war can anyday, anyhow break out.

Moonstriker SG

Heckler & Koch 416 anytime...

maurizio13 SG

SAR-21 is the Best Weapon in the Universe.

Delusion is best served when you agree with them.

maurizio13 SG

SAR-21 Users:

Ariedartin SG

There are variants of the SAR 21 with Picatinny rails, so Singaporean soldiers would theoretically be able to equip and use the same quality accessories as the Americans, in order to compensate for the design flaws and screw-ups.

Unfortunately...

It seems not even 1 Cdo has them. So what's the use?

Man!x SG

to make money from foreign exports....frankly speaking if SAF use SAR with rails then they must provide the optics. knowing SAF very well, we will most likely get the crap ones which is a hassle to use and draw out.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

So the entire thing is just an exercise in wayang so that lionnoisy can get media articles to toot his horn about?