Airshow China 2008

last SG · 2008-11-01T09:38:54+00:00

Dogfight theorists have understood two advantages and disadvantages.1. Power to weight ratio.2. Manueverability / turning capability. To engage an enemy ai...

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

typing long reply? use a word processor to save you some grief...

Shotgun SG

Bro ,according to the international airpoer review, 40000lb is its max take off weight. So, not very fair to compare T/w of max takeoff weight of J-10 and to combat weight of J-11.

should compare the max T/o weight of the J-11 which is 73000lb.

Unfortunately nobody knows the combat load of the J-10. So i guess this will suffice. But of course even then, the T/W of the J-11 is still higer than the J-10 at max weight. So a point to you.

Hmm now that makes a bit of sense.... cos I saw from somewhere else that the max t/o weight was 42,500lb. Okay lets just calculate from ground up....

The empty weight, I'm guessing is about 20,000lb... at about 9000lb of fuel ( the F-16 slightly smaller is about 7000lbs, im guessing the J-10 should be able to manage 9000 ) and approx 2000lb worth of AAM ( 4 x each AMRAAM sized weapon is abt 400lb).

Leaves us at about still 32000lbs.

AL-31F about 27000lb of thrust in Afterburner

I guess the only way it breaks 1:1 ratio is if it carries about 50% fuel load; which is what the flanker does anyway...

I really do feel that they are trying to circumvent export restrictions on the J-11 licenses. Hence they'd try to market the J-10 instead.

sgstars:

This page has some snaps of the cockpit that seems the most consistent with other sites.

http://www.strategypage.com/military_photos/military_photos_20080804224738.aspx

Three color MFDs and a basic 6 under the centre (slightly smaller) MFD. Reminds me of the Eurofighter cockpit....

38 SG

To Shotgun:

J-10 may be longer than F-16, but it also slimmer, make it the overall size similar to F-16:

The F-16C’s empty weight is 8300kg, so it’s reasonable to assume J-10 is around 8500kg instead of 9000kg you estimate.

For the internal fuel, let’s benchmark J10 against the other fighters, Israeli Lavi can contain 2650kg ( 5900 ibs) max internal fuel, European Typhoon can have 4500kg(10000ibs) max. F16 is around 7000ibs(3150kg), You put J-10’s internal fuel at 9000ibs(4050kg), which put it in the same class of a heavier, twin engine fighter instead of closer design single engine fighters.

So it’s not strange to see you underestimate J-10’s combat loading, let the pics make the talking, see it’s really 2000ibs of AAMs or not:

Shotgun SG

True that the actual weight could actually be similar to the F-16Cs due to supposedly extensive use of composite materials. It maybe under 19000lb.

Erm, my combat loading is not referring or specifying the max amount of stores it can carry. My bad for not clarifying.

What I was referring to is a "benchmark" number of weapons being carried when considering its "effective" manueverability against another type of aircraft.

Say when I compare an F-16 to a MiG-29, we'd consider a full load or maybe 60% load of fuel, and the weight of 4 AAMs (in this case, i was using AMRAAMskis which way about 400lb a piece, totalling to 1600lb)

Without doing that, I can't make an useful estimation of flight performance of any aircraft IMO. I cant gauge it when the aircraft is loaded with 4000lb of bombs, and I can't gauge it when its flying totally clean. So some factorization for an aircraft loaded out for air to air is included.

I think my estimation of the J-10s fuel load is considerably light. Sino defence posted somewhere around 4500kg (approx. 9900lbs).

So lets say its 18500lb empty, give it 1600lb of AAMs, and 9000lb of fuel. Again, the numbers are still within the ballpark of Under 1:1. Which is FINE really... All I'm saying is that the Su-27 does have the upper hand in terms of t/w ratio.

38 SG

I’d rather believe commonsense than some other enthusiast’s website. As I said, EF2000 features larger delta wing, smaller canard and most import of all, 2 powerplants instead of J10’s 1, it only can have 10000ibs/4500kg max internal fuel, how come J10 matches that?

If I were the PLAAF procurer, why I need a light fighter having so much internal fuel, yet every time the same fighter still carrying at least 1 external fuel tank? Why I need a long haul light fighter, when I have almost double the J10’s number of heavy Su27/30 to accomplish the same mission?

Taking a look at J10’s sister fighter, the FC-1/JF-17 is produced in the same factory but only for export, the FC-1/JF-17’s official internal fuel numer is 2300kgs/5110ibs, the J-10 is only slightly larger than FC-1/JF17, but holding almost twice the internal fuel at 4050/4500 kgs? No way.

FC-1 with J-10

Shotgun SG

FC-1 with J-10

Well, what do You think the J-10's internal fuel capacity is?

You do have a point that the J-10 is a single engine aircraft, should theoretically have less fuel, when compared against the Typhoon which has 2.

38 SG

F-16’s internal fuel max is 3100kg, the empty weight of F16 is 8300kg

Fuel to weight ratio is 3150/(3150 + 8300)=0.275

Yankee’s Airforce is tasked to be attacking orientated, which requests the fuel to weight ratio the higher the better. As a matter of fact, American made fighter’s such ratio indeed the best among others. I doubt Chinese can make J10’s such figure better than what Yanks got. Let use the same ratio, assuming J-10’s empty weight is 8500kg, if the ratio is 0.275 at same level of F16, then 3230/(3230 +8500)=0.275, so the J-10’s internal fuel is around 3250kg(7220ibs)

The range: 3-3.5 tons depending on the ratio and empty weight of J10

Shotgun SG

F-16’s internal fuel max is 3100kg, the empty weight of F16 is 8300kg

Fuel to weight ratio is 3150/(3150 + 8300)=0.275

The range: 3-3.5 tons depending on the ratio and empty weight of J10

Well you might be right on that. From what I hear, the J-10 does have shorter legs than the F-16, and considering it has a hungrier engine...

sundaytimes SG

I can see China airpower and seapower are rising.

Beside new fighters, there are also JH-7 supersonic bomber and H-8 bombers are on the way.

The China aircraft carriers are building.

lionnoisy SG

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/nz/zhhz7/index.shtml

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/2008-11-02/1350527919.html

list of exhibitors

alert5 SG

http://www.alert5.com/2008/11/airshow-china-2008-press-day.html

First report.

alert5 SG

Pictures from today

http://www.alert5.com/gallery/zhuhai08-pre

alert5 SG

women of airshow china

http://www.alert5.com/gallery/zhuhai08-women

38 SG

The airshow is over but the debate continues, one of the Russian aerospace journalist have such observation which really stirred hot debate in many forums:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2008/11/dispatch-from-zhuhai-chinas-j1.html

...Now everyone I trust says the Chinese pulled it off, and the J-10 has proven a tremendously successful program.

I watched how the J-10 flew over Zhuhai, in 30 degree Celsius temperatures and high humidity.

The pilot did none of the show tricks like post-stall or tail slide or pitch-back, but turns were very tight, initial rate of turn very high. It was clear there is a lot of potential in this airplane to achieve the same maneuvers more quickly.

The pilot rarely used afterburner and the degrees of canard deflection were small. Still, the airplane flew very well. I reckon it will beat F-16C or MiG-29/SMT easily.

To accomplish the comments, here are some videos of J-10 performing in the Airshow.

Yes, it did climbs like a rocket :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mB90zVT7AOs

http://www.alert5.com/2008/11/j-10-taxi-and-take-off-at-zhuhai.html

Courtesy of Alert5 for the last footage.

Shotgun SG

Hmm, the pilot took about 20 secs to complete a full 360 combat turn without afterburner. I think it should be able to sustain a higher than F-16 turn rate in full AB at 5000ft.

A lot can't be said without the pilot lighting up.

PtePinkY SG

i dont trust anything made in china. milk can put melamine. chinese made toys cant last for more than 2 months.

if i were to fly a chinese plane in times of a war, i would hug my girlfriend goodbye. who knows that the plane stalls in the middle of a flight due to engine failure because they use inferior materials? and better still, the ejection system is only for show and wont work?

Shotgun SG

Stalling in flight its fine.... If cannot restart just try to glide it back down to the nearest airbase.

Unless we're feet wet...

Lard Dummy SG

pinky you sure or not? i

-Edited by Shotgun ( Personal Attack )

**Please leave personal agendas out of the discussion**

wonderamazement SG

i dont trust anything made in china. milk can put melamine. chinese made toys cant last for more than 2 months.

what kind of stall. engine stall or aerodynamic stall.

Shotgun SG

what kind of stall. engine stall or aerodynamic stall.

I think he means engine stall lar... which is quite rare in modern jets.

Aerodynamic stall is generally recoverable and quite fun to mess around with. Exception of flat-spins that is. If I recall correctly, the F-16s flat-spin is irrecoverable. But it takes a lot of effort to get there.

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