Lionnoisy's War against Everything Australian: Hobart DDGs

lionnoisy SG

lionnote:This thread is dedicated to Oz navy.

NOTE FROM MODERATOR "Shotgun" : User Lionnoisy has highly controversial and extreme views on the ADF and anything Australian. Viewer discretion is advised.

...little disagreement that right decision was made:Janes Fighting Ship 2008/09.

dear fren:The reputable Janes Fighting Ship is talking about

two contracts worths A$11 billion or to minimaze any misunderstanding

ie $11,000,000,000 !!

above:Top---Blocks to be made in various shipyards

bottom--one of the models

Here come the 3 AWD----Australian Hobart Class

Air Warfare Destroyers,with a price tag of A$8 billion,

A$8,000,000,000 !!Wow.One years of SG defense budget!!

Oz try to create jobs for local.So they emphasis as much as possible

works to be done in Oz!!

But is the Spanish shipyard good to produce warships?

i find the main contract was signed before the sub systems

are finalised.Will this increase the price?

U know shipyard will charge u any single bolt and nut and one more

hole they drill.

I find A$8 b for 3 AWD is pretty expensive.

How much a USN destoryer cost?

Janes Fighting Ship 2008/09 comments

In the Excutive Summary--

....Both designs@@ are selected in favour of highly competitive alternatives but,taking into capacity,technical risk and affordabilty,

lion note:mean AWD and LHD,two amphibious ships worth

a total of (another )$3 billion.

''The three Air Warfare Destroyers, which will be known as the Hobartclass, are based on the Spanish F100 Air Warfare Destroyer''(as shown here)

AUSTRALIA’S NEXT GENERATION AIR WARFARE DESTROYER

20 Jun 2007

Australia’s maritime air warfare capability has reached a significant milestone today with the Government’s selection of the Navantia designed F100 as the next generation Air Warfare Destroyer (AWD) for the Royal Australian NaRAN).

At a cost of nearly $8 billion, and subject to successful contract negotiations, Navantia will work with the AWD Alliance (Defence Materiel Organisation, ASC and Raytheon Australia) to deliver three AWDs to the Royal Australian Navy.

For your info,all these 2 giant contracts were awarded in June 2007

6 months before Howard governemnt stepped down in early Dec 2007,or

5 months before the General Election in Nov 2007!!

The A$3 billion Super Hornets contract was also signed in May 2007!!

Why suddenly Oz find the urge to buy hard wares of A$14 billions within

two months?

Clear and Present Danger?

Reference

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,23689440-5006301,00.html

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/NelsonMintpl.cfm?CurrentId=6781

http://www.defence.gov.au/defencemagazine/editions/20050901/groups/navy.htm

http://www.defence.gov.au/defencemagazine/editions/200708_01/groups/dmo.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Super_Hornet

http://www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/94979?page=4

fudgester SG

So..... what's the problem?

storywolf SG

if australians do not have problem with it – why should a lion have problem with it !!!

gaoxingdcf07 SG

wah piang eh??

you cannot ownself edit the artical ar???

headache liao lah !!

rain-coat SG

normal miltary transaction what...dont see what the big fuss is about, just like when sg purchased their Formidable class frigates. or when sg placed orders for the F-15/35s

lionnoisy SG

Oh No big problems to us.

Just to see how we can learn anythings from this mega projects

and its implementation.

Forums,like medias,is to entertain,inform and educate,

and passing time.Dunt take it too serious.we have too many serious stuff

to take care in life.

Like in 1986,SG spent one year defense budget to buy

4 E--2C AEW.Each country just spend what she think

is correct in defense.We just observe from distance.

Pick up few things then apply in life.

Learn from their success or failures.

Wow!!A$8 billion for 3 AWD.

But i am still feel uncomfortable that contracts have been awarded

when AWD.COM have not finalised the design and selections

of all systems.Is it the right way to build a war ship?

http://www.defencemodels.com.au/Projects/Hobart.asp

http://www.ausawd.com/news.html

Again,so many masts ,sensors and antennas like Christmas trees decorations.

Can they incorporate it in a better looking way and more stealth?

How is the RCS compared with ships built 1 to 2 decades ago?

Pl bear with me of this kind of layman comments.

U just compare

But can they do better,ie more stealth,less RCS.

This is 2008.

U look at the model.They dunt bother conceal the small craft.

Is it worth A$2,500,000,000 for one ship?

I know the spec of the combat sys is great.

The Aegis Combat System incorporating the state-of-the-art phased array radar, AN/ SPY 1D(V), in combination with the SM-2 missile, will provide an advanced air defence system capable of engaging enemy aircraft and missiles at ranges in excess of 150km.

http://www.ausawd.com/overview.html

But u also have to do at your best ability under TODAY's technology.

lionnoisy SG

u can know the exact locations of each sys in

this graphic which is very good.pl go to

http://www.ausawd.com/overview/ship_specs.html

Why does she need so many crews?

The bridge is in between two sets of missiles launchers.

Will the smokes of 48 VL affect the bridge visibilty?

Characteristics:          Length 146.7m
                                        Beam 18.6m
                                        Draft 7.2m
                                        Full Load Displacement 6,250 tonnes

Performance: Top Speed: 28+ kts
Range: 5,000+ nm at 18+ kts

Crew: Approx 180

Accommodation: 236

Combat System:         Aegis Baseline 7.1 and AN/SPY-1D(V) Phased Array Radar
                                        Horizon Search Radar
                                        Vertical Launch System: 48 x Mk 41 VLS Cells
                                        Gun: Mk 45 5” 62 Calibre Gun
                                        HARPOON Missile Launchers: 2 quad launchers
                                        EW Suite
                                        PHALANX Very Short Range Air Defence
                                        TYPHOON Very Short Range Surface Defence
                                        NULKA missile decoy system
                                        Hull Mounted and towed array sonar system
                                        Communications Suite

Aviation: Hangars: 1

Boats: Two Rigid Hulled Inflatable Boats

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Since when was the Aelgis system, with all it's powerful active radars and the like, as well as operating near other fleet ships which will show up on radar and the like, supposed to be a stealth system?

Only a noisy lion don't know any homework will even bother to ask these questions.

He might as well ask, we spent a ton of cash on the F-15SG, but it has such a huge RCS compared to the JSF or even the F-16, as well as having a much larger logistics footprint.

So going by lionnoisy's logic the RSAF made a bad mistake spending so much money on a old, non-stealthy aircraft design that is several decades old when fifth generation stuff is already here.

storywolf SG

u can know the exact locations of each sys in

this graphic which is very good.pl go to

http://www.ausawd.com/overview/ship_specs.html

Why does she need so many crews?

The bridge is in between two sets of missiles launchers.

Will the smokes of 48 VL affect the bridge visibilty?

Performance: Top Speed: 28+ kts
Range: 5,000+ nm at 18+ kts

Crew: Approx 180

Accommodation: 236

Aviation: Hangars: 1

Boats: Two Rigid Hulled Inflatable Boats

Lionnoisy - AIR WARFARE DESTROYER main role is to escort the fleet ... with the whole fleet - the need of steath is less. Sometime stealth is not everything !!! The russia SU-35 and Euro-fighter are not stealth, yet they are giving F-22 and f-35 a run for their money.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Well it's not surprising lionnoisy will think this way since all his posts indicate that he thinks that navy ships operate alone hundreds of miles away from any other support and can only enter war "anyday, anyhow".

In his opinion, probably nothing short of a Nimitiz class-sized ship that is configured for just about every possible task and that sails at 500 knots with a warp drive that allows it to turn up "anyday, anyhow, anywhere" and is designed to fight wars alone will sastify him.

I think the only thing "any" about his posts is that they are anyhow made, and in which anything goes.

lionnoisy SG

Hi Sg Ty also,

Tx for responses.

How many surface combatants and sub does oz can depoly at any one time?

Where and when Oz need to deploy to overseas?

The size of the fleet,even after 3 AWD delivered,

hardly can cover the back side!!

BTW,do u need escorts for AWD?

If so,u have less platforms to deploy to other theater.

storywolf SG

I think the only thing "any" about his posts is that they are anyhow made, and in which anything goes.

Even if the Aust AWD is to operate miles away from any other ships alone. With its better radar, it will detect enemy 1st can can choose to evade or even if it cannot evade - its equipments and weapons - are able to take on any threats alone. Also when you get to a certain size - no matter how you wish apply stealth - you just too a little too huge to be effective, so may not be worth that little effort to just reduce it by a little percentage, but stick to proven design which give advantage in other areas.

storywolf SG

Hi Sg Ty also,

Tx for responses.

How many surface combatants and sub does oz can depoly at any one time?

Where and when Oz need to deploy to overseas?

The size of the fleet,even after 3 AWD delivered,

hardly can cover the back side!!

BTW,do u need escorts for AWD?

If so,u have less platforms to deploy to other theater.

If it ever come to war - the whole Oz fleet, troops ships and merchant fleet will be deploy !! Also most likely they will be part of a combine commonwealth fleet or Nato Fleet.

Even in exercise -they been doing that with US and other navies including singapore navy.

3 AWD delivered - cannot cover backside ? If position them at properly on the outer defence parameter of the fleet - they form a nice triangle defence, which is effective enough to cover everything. Even with 1 ADW in the fleet - your anti-air, anti-ship and anti-submarine will be increased !

The ADWs is able to handle air, surface and underwater threat, they do not need escorts.

lionnoisy SG

i dunt agree that big ship no need to reduce RCS.

Look at this.i think USN takes pain to reduce RCS.

Let the enemy get closer then can see u by nake eyes.

Dunt make them so easy to see u by radar,

even for a 24,900 long ship tons!!

http://www.san-antonio.navy.mil/default.aspx

lionnoisy SG

http://www.mesa-verde.navy.mil/default.aspx

no Christmas tree like super structures!!

lionnoisy SG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Uss_san_antonio_1330453.jpg

U have make full use of current technology to conceal

where u are,even u are very big!!

No effort will be wasted to reduce whatever small RCS.

If not,then what is the advancement of current ship and ships built

20 years ago?

If u are a whale,then no choice.But u are a shark to kill and

not to be killed unnecessairly!!

http://www.news.navy.mil/search/display.asp?story_id=21943

San Antonio's design reduces its radar cross-section signature by streamlining topside design and incorporating other advanced technologies.

lionnoisy SG

do somethings to reduce RCS

i hate Christmas tree like super structure in 21st century!!

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/dd-968-aems.gif

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/lpd-17.htm

lionnoisy SG

strike for best design to save Sailors from unnecessiarly risks.

Technology,fund,time frame,etc all allow u to do the best

for your country.Why not the best?

See how they improve the design.

Initial design of USN

amphibious transport dock ship USS San Antonio (LPD 17).below

Final design of USN

amphibious transport dock ship USS San Antonio (LPD 17).below.

Oz proposed AWD.below.

Proposed new OZ AWD.

can u guys put some suggestions to improve it,especially the X'mas Tree.

sorry.no reward.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

i dunt agree that big ship no need to reduce RCS.

Look at this.i think USN takes pain to reduce RCS.

Let the enemy get closer then can see u by nake eyes.

Don't avoid the question lionnoisy.

You reduce RCS but use a very powerful active radar and have to use it as part of your role what's the point? Even if you are totally invisible to radar your enemy can still pick you up. Even the low RCS of our Formidible class becomes useless the moment it starts operating in active mode.

So you are not answering the question, you are only showing that you don't really know much about the subject in matter.

You talk so much about christmas tree for what? Go read up more on stuff instead of copy-and-pasting.

The Aelgis ship is supposed to protect fleet operations, unless each and every single ship in the fleet is stealthed, there is no point for the AWD to do the same thing, given the ships it escorts have a much bigger RCS then it in the first place.

Stealth is not the only thing in naval warfare, there are plenty of other factors. It that was the case you might as well say all ships in the navy ought to be submarines because they are the ultimate expression of stealth.

If stealth was the ultimate aim of naval warfare, then ships would long have looked like the Sea Shadow.

So what are you trying to say? Except that you don't know very much but want to make a lot of noise?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

do somethings to reduce RCS

i hate Christmas tree like super structure in 21st century!!

You hate or don't hate who cares?

You hate carrying the SAR-21 like a proper soldier and insist on carrying it like a handbag by the handle while trying to skate around on inline skates in the 21st century you think the SAF cares ah?