Another I hate Australia thread

last SG · 2008-04-13T13:46:54+00:00

3.What is it?in oz sub.i still cant find other sub in other country carrying this object?pl tell me what is it?is it just to warn crews propellers etc submer...

lionnoisy SG

Who exactly in the region is going to attack Australia via the sea? Indonesia? I don't thnk so.

And why does lionnoisy not include the Armidale class patrol boat fleet? Which actually takes the lion's share of coastline patrol against tasks that would be wasted on bigger platforms and actually consitute a large part of peacetime operations.

ok I include it. 6.6 ships of Armidale class patrol boat can go for tasks a day.

http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/patrol/

But with'' Rafael Typhoon 25mm naval stabilised deck gun and two 12.7mm machine guns,''it takes the role of Marine Police,

not naval defense force.It is not good enough to fight with heavy armed pirates!!

'' The new patrol boats will improve the Royal Australian Navy’s capability to intercept and apprehend vessels suspected of illegal fishing, quarantine, customs or immigration offences. (lion note:sound like SG ICA and Police Coast Guard jobs!!) Trials will continue for the remainder of the year to ensure the fuel system works reliably and will cope with the environmental conditions in the northern wet season.. This risk is assessed as medium..'' 34 (17 of 76) in http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/06-07/dar/2006-2007_defence_DAR_09_v2_s2.pdf

ok i assume it can detect and track threats.But how?

How much the PB can do?

Any threat most likely come with much heavy fire power.

when oz can fix the engine problems?

2.Have u mixed up with SG Patrol Vessel?

Weapons
76 mm OTO MELARA SRGM
MISTRAL Surface to Air Missile/
WHITEHEAD Torpedoes

SG Patrol vessel can hit threats from ,surface,and air / submarine!!

Dunt cheat by the name.Not every patrol boat is the same ,mates

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/mindef_websites/atozlistings/navy/assets/vessels.html

CM06 SG

*sigh* havent you seen what a 25mm CG can do? More so for a Typhoon 25mm? What surface pirate can engage and live?

1 25mm round is the size of a coke bottle except heavier.

lionnoisy SG

bah you are hopeless

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/collins/

We only build the frigates from blueprints. They build subs you know the difference in tech right?!?!

It is fool hardy and embarassing for you to even try comparing our naval industry or strength with our close ally, Australia.

You are going to get your face kick into your *** by others and no one's going to help you pull it out.

yes damn difflcult to build sub. But what is the products look like? Since the delivery of last ships,how many days each ship can sail? seriouly over budget ,long delay, Just build one class with so many problems and claim to be sub designer!! Upgrade upgrade every where (in the ship)! Upgrade upgrade every year!

16/f/lonely SG

LOL

I dunno what to say! Embarassed

CM06 SG

erm if you don upgrade you become outdated....like you.

Collins class is designed by kockums. Aussies build them.

lionnoisy SG

to be fair,i list all the major upgrading projects here http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/lsp/index.cfm

and also the Audit General reports

http://www.anao.gov.au/search.cfm?cat_id=4&arg=

http://www.anao.gov.au/director/publications/auditreports/2007-2008.cfm?item_id=B5C6475C1560A6E8AAF2A8DA9DC9D8EF

The audit follows on from Audit Report No. 45 2004-2005, Management of Selected Defence Systems Program Offices, May 2005. That report is being considered by the JCPAA, as part of its current inquiry into Defence Financial Management and Equipment Acquisition at the Department of Defence and DMO.

18. The FFG Upgrade Project has experienced extensive delays in meeting the contracted capability upgrade requirements specified in the late 1990s. The number of FFGs to be upgraded has been reduced from six to four, and the scheduled acceptance of the fourth and final ship has been delayed by four and a half years to June 2009. Since the last ANAO audit in 2005, the project delays are attributable to a range of Underwater Warfare System and Electronic Support System performance deficiencies. Considerable risk remains to the delivery of contractually compliant capability to Navy, given the maturity of these systems.^6''

The objective of the audit was to provide an independent assurance of the effectiveness of Defence's management of the acquisition, and future provision of the Armidale Class Patrol Boats capability, relating to the in-service support contract, provision of infrastructure, and crewing sustainability.

http://www.anao.gov.au/search.cfm?cat_id=4&arg=&pageNumber=2

http://www.anao.gov.au/uploads/documents/2004-05_Audit_Report_29.pdf

''The 12 ACPBs will be required to deliver up to 3600 sea days per year, and will be operated by 18 separate RAN crews'''

(lion note:10 ships a per day sails)

Shall PB is to be added either anti air or anti sub function?

Collins class submarine

'' most powerful conventional sub in the world''---

http://www.asc.com.au/aspx/home.aspx

http://www.anao.gov.au/uploads/documents/2001-02_Audit_Report_30.pdf

page 16 of 154

''21. OT&E on the Collins-class submarines is experiencing significant difficulties caused mainly by the amount of engineering development still under way in the program as well as significant in-service support problems. The Collins class has shifted from development into operational service without a distinct end to development T&E, placing further
demands on the overall program.

22. Many Collins-class performance deficiencies were not corrected prior to DMO offering the submarines to Navy for acceptance into service.
These have caused extra cost and delays in gaining required naval capability and in achieving acceptance into naval service. The need to spend substantial amounts on modifications to achieve ‘limited capability level’ improvements in two submarines, and to extend the Collins program by seven years to accommodate modifications and upgrades to
all Collins submarines, reinforces the importance of this issue. The submarines’ existing and planned redesign, modification, upgrade and sustainability enhancement costs represent an increase of 39 per cent on the approved submarine project cost of $5.09 billion (December 2000
prices).
23. Shortages of Navy technical personnel have led to a chronic
shortage of T&E trained personnel in Navy’s T&E agency (RANTEAA).''

1.6 to 2.2 ships of Collins for tasking,depending in how u read the reports!!

5 out of 6 SSK in docks almost at the same time??

MCD = Mid-Cycle Docking--5

AMP = Assisted Maintenance Period--4

ID = Intermediate Docking—9 to 14

CED = Certifi cation Extension Docking--14

CEM = Certifi cation Extension Maintenance Period--5

SMP = Self Maintenance Period--2

IMAV = Intermediate Maintenance Availability—8

http://www.asc.com.au/cms_resources/documents/annualreports/ASC_Annual_Report_2004.pdf

pigsticker SG

but who cares about what the aussies are doing? i think u should be more critical of our local defense industries... unless u happen to stay in australia...

anyway the aussies will never project their power into this region, at least not in our lifetime probably... and the ones who should really care the indonesians and not us... they are the ones who has the most problems with the aussies, not us...

speaking about the indonesians, why not make some critiques about the state of their military hardware and software?? i believe it mght be in even worse position than the aussies...

16/f/lonely SG

Please dont tell me you're gonna use a 76mm gun, or a torpedo or a harpoon against a pirate.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

This is just an example of you sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la i can't hear you"

Going by your logic are you implying that our SAR-21 is a total waste of money because it was outclassed by the TAR-21 the moment it came out and we spent even more money to make more variants and in the end it's still heavier and the advanced versions haven't found their way to the grunt?

Going by your logic it means our Bx would also be a waste of money and time given not only did we not manage to replace the M113s it was supposed to despite years spent on design and funding, we now have to spend more time and money to come up with a Bx2 because the orginal Bionix was found to be NOT COMPATIBLE with our SAF 3G vision!

Also does this mean our Light Tank Project was a total waste despite 20 years and millions spent when in the end we decided just to get Leopard 2?

All the media nonsense apart, if you look at the entire Collins project from the standpoint of experience gained in sub manufacture, technology transfer with the Yanks which put their SSKs on par in hunter-killer ability as an Virgina class SSN, plus ADCAP torpedoes as partr of experience-for-technology with the yanks, as well as experience in submarine warfare penetrating the most effective ASW net in the world, PLUS unique technologies developed in the program means that the Australians actually managed to kill multiple birds with one stone and got a VERY good deal with the Collins program.

So you can say all you want lionnoisy, but the Aussies actually made a very good investment and deal. If ST Marine want to build a local sub right now, we will have to rely on blueprints from other countries, and then spend time and money FIGURING out how to develop our technology for our own needs, and then test it and implement it and then troubleshoot it. On the other hand, the Aussies are already into their second generation of advanced SSKs while we are just starting on our first generation.

So yes, the Aussies paid a hefty price to get the technologies and experience to be the most lethal SSK force in the world, but a the end of the day they managed to trump the USN and as a reward even got yank technologies and ADCAP torpedos! And that is something ST will be hard-pressed to get. Somehow this fact seems to be lost on you if one day the Austraian submarine force ever decide to take on the RSN, the RSN will be in very serious trouble.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Please dont tell me you're gonna use a 76mm gun, or a torpedo or a harpoon against a pirate.

He seems to think that pirates use submarines, military aircraft and warships.

And indeed, what is his imaginary "threat" to australia that he keeps talking about that they need to defend from?

fudgester SG

Don't upgrade.... you say the subs are outdated.

Upgrade regularly.... you say that the subs got problems.

So how? I take it that you're still using Windows 95?

pigsticker SG

oh yeah... the ADCAP torpedoes look awesome... destroyer escorts dun seem to have much hope once it's hit by it...

arball SG

and so the battle rages on....

oya, lionnoisy, can dun keep cutting and pasting articles? cos i hate scrolling them...perhaps you can try to summarise them by typing them out lar, might help improve your thought process too. unless getting screamed at everyday on sgforums constitutes an cheap thrill for you....

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

and so the battle rages on....

Actually I'm not sure if he has any form of critical thinking.... CRITICAL thinking on anything non Singapore maybe, as in he seems to operate on two main modes:

1)Play up anything on Singapore and give it a good spin

2)Play down anything in other countries that are better then Singapore, and give them a negative spin if possible... his attempt to downplay the TAR-21, SAF and Singapore security peacetime blunders is a prime example of him shooting off his mouth in his desperate attempts to defend his precious notion of Singaporean weapons and security "superiority".

Intellectual intergity is something pesky to him and as we can see from his carry-SAR-like-handbag and F-18E-launch-from-LHD threads, he has no issues with warping reality or the laws of logic and physics to suit his own fantasies.

Hence it's no surprise while the Australians now have most advanced SSKs in the world, managed to trump the USN in exercises that led to the yanks trading off ADCAP torpedos for experience from the Aussies, as well as planning their next generation submarines, lionnoisy is still stuck in trying to create his own fantasy world that despite all apperances the Aussies are not making it with their submarine programme when by all measures they got a very good deal from the whole saga.

This is no surprise when all you know how to do is to quote articles from the media and demostrate no form of critical thinking except CRITICAL thinking about other countries.

Since he's so keen on media articles, then prehaps he could love to explain some other media articles about the Australian Defence Forces:

Like how if the Collins is "partial blind and crippled" it managed to outfox and defeat a 688I class SSN, plus score several hits on American ships despite an entire fleet trying to hunt ONE Collin's class sub? The performance was so exceptional that the Americans decided to help the Australians with their submarine program in exchange for SSK hunting experience.

Like how if the ADF is supposedly crippled and unable to fight, their troops have distinguished themsleves in combat in Afganistan in one instance managing to kill over 300 of the enemy in a firefight without loss?

lionnoisy SG

'Orphan System' Syndrome is the main cause of almost all

oz defense procurement problems!!pl read lah...

US has not finalised nuke Combat Sys

Glory to US Navy assistances.Now US nuke come to help.

unforuntalely,US is still trail and error in the nuke sub Combat Sys!!

http://www.defence.gov.au/dmo/msd/sea1439/sea1439ph4a.cfm

Where we are today (February 2008)
As of February 2008, the Project Team is pleased to announce that we have:

· Successfully installed the system in HMAS WALLER during the Full Cycle Docking (FCD) which completed in May 2007, completed Harbour certification testing (referred to as Category 4 testing) and Sea Trials Certification (referred to as Category 5 testing). Interim Operational Release for WALLER is scheduled for late Mar 08.

· Installation of a similar TI02 system in HMAS FARNCOMB is well underway. Interim Operational Release for FARNCOMB is scheduled for second quarter 09.

Installation of the latest AN/BYG 1 V(8) TI06 system in HMAS DECHAINEUX is also well underway. Interim Operational Release for DECHAINEUX is scheduled for last quarter 09.''

read here.US is still under R and D.

http://www.dtic.mil/descriptivesum/Y2007/Navy/0604562N.pdf

''DATE:

February 2006

AN/BYG-1 TI00/02

FY05: Continued to resolve DT/OT discrepancies associated with AN/BYG-1 TI00/TI02.

Began engineering development process for selection and protyping of new technologies for TI06.

FY06: Continue development, integration and test of the next generation AN/BYG-1 (TI06) for 688/688I Class submarines scheduled for delivery in

FY07.

FY07: Continue development, integration and test of the next generation AN/BYG-1 (TI06) for 688/688I Class submarines scheduled for delivered in FY 07''

The Collins reports

if u want to cry,read the followings.

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/1999/collins.html

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/2001-02/02RP03.htm

:l HMAS Dechaineux and HMAS Sheean

These two were launched in 2000.But why:from 1999 report''

http://www.janes.com/defence/naval_forces/news/jfs/jfs010202_collins_sub.shtml

'Orphan Systems'

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/2001-02/02RP03.htm

''Only One Amongst Many: Ongoing Problems in Defence Procurement

Yet, in reality, the Collins submarine program is not amongst the worst managed by Defence, in terms of either additional costs or time overrun. At present there are 15 Defence acquisition programs which have exceeded their approved cost by a combined total of $568 million...

Even by the worst interpretation of performance, the Collins program would rank twelfth amongst these. Many of the programs are characterised by changes to overseas systems to meet specifications developed by the Australian Defence Force (ADF) for peculiarly Australian requirements. These systems are unique to Australia and typically have proven difficult both to develop and maintain. Within Defence they have attracted the nickname 'orphan systems'...''

Only two sub defending Oz a day and at least last for few years!!

lionnoisy SG

Can any one object to the following figures?

http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/06-07/dar/2006-2007_Defence_DAR_03_v1_s2.pdf

Is it enough to defend Oz?I dunt want we need send SAF to help!!

.............................(Adelaide Class)

Guided missile FFG...ANZAC FFG...Collins SSK

Platforms in services--------------4.....................8...............6

URD---------------------------------1046...............1850..........817

(unit ready days)

Achieved----------------------------951..................1829.........802

Substantially achieved-----------874..................1669.........583

Platforms avaiable per day(max):2.9.................5.1..........2.2

Total:10!!

Patrol boats ?Ok ok.assume 10 boats as marine police a day!!

How can Oz handed over propollers to US?

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/2001-02/02RP03.htm

''The RAN appears to recognise the risk in this situation. In early 2001 relations between Kockums and the RAN were strained after the RAN had shipped one of the company's propellers to the USA. Commodore Paul Greenfield, Director General of Submarines, acknowledged that Kockums, as the designer, had a very important role in the future support of the submarines and hoped that the formerly strong relationship between Navy and Kockums could be restored.

note 91

ibid., pp. 8-9. These facts help explain why Kockums went to the Federal Court seeking to injunct the delivery of one of its propellers to the US Navy, on the grounds that it would compromise Kockums' intellectual property rights. Publicity that the propellers did not work confused the difference between the effectiveness of the design, the on board environment in which it operates and the failings of the material that the shipbuilder was forced to use.''

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Nobody is arguing with the numbers, you are mistaking peacetime readiness for wartime abilities, which is no surprise given all you know how to do is to tally numbers without even knowing how things really work.

The URD figures will naturally change when a military goes to heightened alert, for maintaining a high URD for no reason (especially out of proportion to current threat levels) is not only wasteful, but means you are running down your own forces for no good reason.

Unless you are going to come out with some fantasy situtation where the Indonesian navy launched a whole fleet of stealth ships that can sail at 200 knots and reach Australia within 24 hours, I think you're talking rubbish. You are mixing up URD for actual readiness in different alert levels.

Going by your logic, I can say that we may have 250,000 personnel in our military, but at any one time only a small proportion (less then 10 percent) is actually ready to go or out in ops in ten minutes case anything breaks out. Going by your logic I can conclude that the SAF then, is unable to defend Singapore.

I think you are deluding yourself if you think just by repeating your old posts people will bother to read them. But I managed to spot yet another mistake in your post:

How can Oz handed over propollers to US?

http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/rp/2001-02/02RP03.htm

note 91

This is yet another example of you not knowing your homework and relying on the politically-charged media to formulate your arguments.

For your information, propeller design is among one of the most difficult aspects of submarine design, for having a wrong or inadequate screw design will result in the submarine wasting energy or worse, creating cavitation even at low speeds. A lot of effort is spent designing the specific propeller for the specific class and even then screw design is a very specific art.

It is not surprising given this is the first time they are working with making their own screws that they are going to need some help from the yanks, the whole injunctment thing is more of a political battle then a technical one.

What do you mean by how can they give their propellers to the yanks? The yanks are far ahead in this field and the Australian navy stands nothing to lose and everything to gain from this exchange by getting American help... but once again the politics and the media, and you by extension, decide to jump all over it without even knowing what is the case or doing your homework.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Only two sub defending Oz a day and at least last for few years!!

Another example of you talking rubbish. You seem to think the only way to defend any nation is to flood the ocean with hundreds of warships.

Firstly what is the purpose of an SSK? It is not a picket line ship to form a gaunlet but a hunter-killer that often operates alone.

What this mean is that the purpose of these subs is not to defend each and every inch of Australian coastline but to be at the right place at the right time, not go on extensive patrols for no good reason. That role is better served by other cheaper means.

And before you talk more rubbish, remember that one Collins sub is more then enough to wreck havoc with an enemy fleet, as just one sub proved against the USN.

lionnoisy SG

oh some of u say,upgrading is good and normal.

But the projects for Collins,for example,are too excessive.

Pl read then talk here.Eg,

HMAS Dechaineux and HMAS Sheean were upgraded in

2000,the same year that they were launched!!

Oz under defense or SG over defense?

1.If we include the 10 Oz Patrol Boats,combatant naval platforms

defending Oz is total 20 in any day.Pl bear in mind the weapons in Patrol Boats are'' Rafael Typhoon 25mm naval stabilised deck gun and two 12.7mm machine guns,''a low fire power in naval

defense.Collins SSK are the most powerful SK lah.Just 2 is enough a day to protect Oz.

Do u really think 10 combatant naval platforms,and 10

Patrol Boats which act as Coastal Guards,can effectively

defend Oz against serious threats ?

If u think so,then SG naval defense force is excessive!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Navy

Total 31 combatant naval platforms.Say 60% operational in any day,that is 18 platforms defending SG in any day!!.

10+10 combatant naval platforms defending Oz in any day.

18 combatant naval platforms defending little red dot in any day.

ANZAC frigate of Oz

Formidable class of Spore

Collins depth is more classified after HMAS Dechainux incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collins_class_submarine

''More trouble however followed, when in 2005, it was revealed that the maximum diving depth of the Collins class had been reduced following an incident in February 2003, when a seawater hose failed on HMAS Dechainux, flooding the engine room and almost sinking the vessel. The maximum depth remains classified. The government claims that the problems of the Collins class are now solved or on their way to resolution.''

The depth reduced from over 300 m in original design to over 180m.

http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/submarine.html

most powerful SSK!!

16/f/lonely SG

We got 18 meh?????

Eh! Use your brain leh!

We have only 11 PVs, 6 MCVs for patrolling!

And not all will sail at once, and even if you include LST and FFS you think can hit 18?!

BULLSHIT

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