SAR-21 on Popular Mechanics

last SG · 2008-07-18T00:52:18+00:00

If you claim to understand SAF - forward strategy, then you would understand the reverse of it which is backward strategy . Everyone knows forward strateg...

16/f/lonely SG

T-rex - you comparing how good a rifles is or are you comparing how you and your grunt friends manage to bang up rifles better then other army ?

If you are issue with handme down generation of SAR-21 that get knock by your precessors and you around till zeroing gone - then rezeroing is the only options. Frankly zeroing does not goes that easi, but most likely your case is really old hand me down sar-21 - which really is knock by you till kapo type !!!

Have you seen people doing car review with 3-4 hand cars ? Is that fair ? If you want to do go take 3-4 hand tavor and other rifles - they all also have the same issues.

In Reality - the fact still stand - if I need to ship brand new rifles out to battlefield or reconditional factory rezeroed rifles - to soldiers who can open the crate and shoot with it without zeroing. Why not - that is still an advantage, which few others can claim !!!

I don't think any rifle will last long without needing any form of zeroing even if it's me or you.

So in essence, why should it be any significant advantage?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

The point is, it's not.

Apparently storywold thinks that factory zero will last field conditions over prolonged periods.

The point is, the factory zero slips and becomes useless, and in the tactical sense you go to war with a personal weapon, not with a weapon you find in a crate or on the floor like in a video game.

Your personal weapon is a weapon you train with and have to go through field conditions with.

And this is not under extremely harsh conditions or torture testing but routine use.

So if something like "factory zero" can't last the operational lifetime of the weapon, what does this say about it except it is a gimmick? In fact plenty of weapons with intergrated scopes could claim "factory zero" as a nice feature, and as a matter of fact these weapons are factory zeroed.

Bt they don't make a big point about it because they know by common sense such a thing is a gimmick.

In reality- the bigger and more important fact stands that soldiers will have to use their rifle in harsh conditions and over prolonged periods, and practially speaking the zero will slip.

So what's the point? More importantly, "factory zero" does not take into account the fact that each and every shooter is not the same. To consistently shoot with your

Why not - that is still an advantage, which few others can claim !!!

Getting your facts wrong again?

Virtually all other modern firearms are factory-zeroed, but once again they don't make a fuss of it. The SAR-21 is hardly new to this practice. Your G36 comes off the assembly line zeroed to 200 meters.

The difference was that the SAR-21 makers were silly enough to claim this weapon didn't need zeroing due to factory zeroing, which was patently false. Before ATP there are still zeroing shoots for the SAR-21.

This is because factory zero was never a subsitute for true zero in the first place.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Additionally, the whole idea of "factory zero" was not so grunts could take weapons from the box and shoot with them, but to cut down on the zeroing time spent in the range.

This is what the literature says:

The scope is factory-zeroed, and requires minimal further zeroing to suit different users. This minimizes non-training range time to zero the weapons and maximises live-firing training hours

As for combat advantage there is practically none at all... in fact you'll be probably worse of because the "standard" zero of the sights will not suit you as perfectly as a weapon that you bothered to zero on the range to your needs.

And of course the zero of all weapons, especially new ones which have not been broken in will slip because the shooting characteristics of the weapon will change over time as it is used.

So what advantage does the factory zero give in practice? Unless the SAF is in the practice of issuing non-personal weapons to their troops straight from the box and sending them into battle without time to prepare and personalize the sights to the users...

It provides none at all.

It's about the same as the lionnoisy claimed advantage of being able to carry the SAR-21 like a handbag and "run for your life"

gaoxingdcf07 SG

thought SAR21 like other rifle like that,need to do zeroing shoot ???

my fren who use SAR21,said that every range like M16 like that,need to do zero shoot..

SAR21 is much heavier that M16 ~~~

cannot run like taking handbag ~

I_love_my_toilet SG

i uses SAR21

no need to zero shoot

the only thing is to align the LAD using a tool

SAR21 is heavier because of the addition of scope and LAD...

But the SAR21 with M203 is darn heavy.... WHY ?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

i uses SAR21

no need to zero shoot

the only thing is to align the LAD using a tool

SAR21 is heavier because of the addition of scope and LAD...

But the SAR21 with M203 is darn heavy.... WHY ?

Then you heng lorh, or your scores could have been much higher, lol.

SOP for range with SAR21 where I come from still includes zeroing as part of practice.

storywolf SG

The point is, it's not.

Apparently storywold thinks that factory zero will last field conditions over prolonged periods.

The point is, the factory zero slips and becomes useless, and in the tactical sense you go to war with a personal weapon, not with a weapon you find in a crate or on the floor like in a video game.

Your personal weapon is a weapon you train with and have to go through field conditions with.

And this is not under extremely harsh conditions or torture testing but routine use.

Bt they don't make a big point about it because they know by common sense such a thing is a gimmick.

In reality- the bigger and more important fact stands that soldiers will have to use their rifle in harsh conditions and over prolonged periods, and practially speaking the zero will slip.

So what's the point? More importantly, "factory zero" does not take into account the fact that each and every shooter is not the same. To consistently shoot with your

Getting your facts wrong again?

This is because factory zero was never a subsitute for true zero in the first place.

In real life - sad to say not everything is perfect, that you go to your camp draw out your personal weapon ... ?

In real if there is a war - we must imagine the worst scenerio - which your camp would be in rubbles and your personal weapon gone ! You may be issue with a brand new factory zero and start the fight without even time to go to range. Yes the factory setting may not last - if it just last 3 days - for you to kick some ass - you can count your blessing already.

If sniper & hunter have use scopes and out in the field for days and still be effective - a little more care would do wonders. To operate out in field in prolong period is possible with scope . Your experience is due to you being issue very used handme down SAR-21 !!! You have to cater some allowance for its not perfect for its worn out condition - no due to the weapon design or effectiveness. If everything is based on performance of worn out rifles - then nothing out there will work ... beside the old iron sights !!!

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Yawn, this is a true blue lionnoisy "what if tomorrow anytime, anyday go to war" kind of argument. The same kind of logical fallacy that allows "you to run for yr life" carrying the SAR-21 in one hand.

You are coming up with an arbitary, and random "worse scenerio" without accounting for the likelyhood of such an event and the percieved advantages of having something to prepare for it.

Basically if I want to imagine the worst case scenerio, it would be something more severe then lacking a personal weapon and having to find a new one. Zeroing a weapon is hardly a difficult task even in field conditions. If I have to go to ops with a fresh weapon that magically appears from nowhere and everything in chaos chances are we are pretty screwed to begin with.

What is difficult and something harder to deal with is how to fight at night when you can't use anything but a non-tactical LAD.

So let me point out.

Likelyhood of losing your personal weapon in war (meaning sneak attack by enemy on local camp with also means Singapore is pretty screwed): not very high.

Likelyhood of finding the SAR-21 poor night fighting abilities a problem in combat: very high.

So after advertising so much about "factory zero" which one is the bigger and more likely issue?

The whole issue on factory zero is to cut down on range time zeroing, but as I would point out ST hardly makes it with the intention of going to war with factory zero, nor is it even a unique feature- practically all modern firearms come out of the factory with a default factory zero.

So what advantage does it give again? Nothing.

Do you walk around with a lighting rod on your head all time time?

Your experience is due to you being issue very used handme down SAR-21 !!! You have to cater some allowance for its not perfect for its worn out condition - no due to the weapon design or effectiveness. If everything is based on performance of worn out rifles - then nothing out there will work ... beside the old iron sights !!!

So you are saying our SAR-21 features don't work once it gets even slightly used which is disturbing considering some of our good working M-16s have be in service nearly TWICE the total service length of the SAR-21 itself. This is very disturbing indeed...

You are trying to argue for a small, and relatively irrelevant design feature over larger operational issues... great, so much for helicopter vision.

LOL, you're owning yourself bad.

storywolf SG

If I have to go to ops with a fresh weapon that magically appears from nowhere and everything in chaos chances are we are pretty screwed to begin with.

You are trying to argue for a small, and relatively irrelevant design feature over larger operational issues... great, so much for helicopter vision.

LOL, you're owning yourself bad.

Are we pretty screwed - ask Mas Selmat - he will tell you how SAF comb the whole singapore for him - he have the answer of this question for you !

Due to out small island and lack of depth in our defense - if there is a war - we be hit - just how badly ... ? I kind of wonder what make you so sure where your SAR-21 is kept will never be hit ?

If we have to fight a war we are screwed !!! If you can get a hand on a brand new SAR-21 in the middle of the chao - god is kind to you !!!

I didn't say that sar-21 features don't work once it gets even slightly used. You are the one that twisting words again to say that.

Are you sure your SAR-21 is just slightly used. LOL i doubt so !!!

Is it fair to compare a scope on SAr-21 to m16 iron sight - why don't you compare Sar-21 to M16 with scope ! We have M16 that been mounted scope - we should have issue you that - think you will not scream on SAR-21 any more .

You want to compare then compare iron sight of SAR-21 to iron sight of M16 ?

So you telling me your handme down SAR-21 features don't work once it gets even slightly used. - good think we now know the problem is you !

storywolf SG

By the way Mark V and Mark IV are even more lasting then M16 - base on the theory - we should issue them to you instead !!!

storywolf SG

double post

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Due to out small island and lack of depth in our defense - if there is a war - we be hit - just how badly ... ? I kind of wonder what make you so sure where your SAR-21 is kept will never be hit ?

What makes you think that if your SAR-21 is hit that getting a new weapon is the least of your problems?

Truth is if an enemy is attacking singapore and actually has the time and effort to go after small-arms assets it means that they more or less have total domination of our country and that the SAF has been caught with their pants down.

Given this level of surprise, it is doubtful the mysterious weapon crates of yours will be untouched... in fact any smart enemy would probably go after things like Mandai UAF first before going down the list to hitting your personal weapon.

Once again you put the cart before the horse.

If we have to fight a war we are screwed !!! If you can get a hand on a brand new SAR-21 in the middle of the chao - god is kind to you !!!

Hey, why not get a brand SheVa antilander tank that shoots nuclear rounds to go with it? You are talking in fantasy I am talking in hard fact. You go on and on about things like factory-zero while I point out that in practice this thing is hardly important in most situations and that the more basic things like inability to fight at night and a lously default scope are more pressing issues.

Your powers of logic it seems, is not kind to you.

I didn't say that sar-21 features don't work once it gets even slightly used. You are the one that twisting words again to say that.

Wrong, what I am saying is that there is nothing special about the SAR-21 factory zero, given it is common practice in the modern AR industry to factory zero their weapons in the first place (hence it's not even an advantage to begin with), as well as the fact that arms manufacturers do not give their weapons factory zero in case the soldier does not have time to zero his weapon, that's pretty rubbish.

Not to mention pointing out the unreality of you trying to construct your point for factory zero based on the event that you have to go to war without being issued a personal weapon video game style because your weapon was magically bombed.

Basically you are trying to argue for putting a rollcage and five-point harness on a tricycle because one day the tricycle might go over a cliff.

LOL.

You're messing yourself up, you betrayed yourself when

First and foremost the SAR-21 I was using was one of the later production versions that was improved after the terrible QC compliants that ST got from the units they first introduced the SAR.

Secondly, when I was in NS, the SAR was not even in service for 5 years, in addition to the recent make of the weapon, as well as the requirement to pass FFF, means that the weapons themselves are new and certainly less then 5 years old. Contrast this to the M-16s that we also used beside them that were much older.

Thirdly being a frontline unit in 3rd Guards, there must be a redcon status to be achieved as opposed to training schools which can afford to use beat up weapons. This means that the weapons we used were supposed to be the cream of the crop, with only the warstock reserve being newer then that. I hardly think achieving retcon can be done by using training hand-me-down stock.

Even more so those guys in 6th SIR doing actual POI ops, are those people using beat-up-hand-me-downs?

So beat-up-hand-me-downs? Prehaps an "officer" in SIW might see more of them LOL.

And what has this to do with scopes and iron sights? You are talking about "factory zero" no?

So you telling me your handme down SAR-21 features don't work once it gets even slightly used. - good think we now know the problem is you !

As I said, I am not sure what you are talking about except you are desperately trying to imagine that the fact that factory zeroing is actually not an advantage by fantasizing that all people who have a beef with the SAR are using beat-up-hand-me-downs.

Is there any other person the wolf can fault for being unable to escape the hunter except that the fact that his own stories are just not making sense?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

By the way Mark V and Mark IV are even more lasting then M16 - base on the theory - we should issue them to you instead !!!

Avoding the question again eh?

Hmm, the point is simple and you are trying your best not to answer it because it's obvious that you are running up a dead end by trying to bring "factory zero" to it's extreme.

The point is, despite your "rah rah" about factory zero in reality this thing is not only not unique (the Tavor, G36C, as well as virtually any self-respecting small arms manufacturer have this feature as well), it actually has very little utility in modern war.

What you have tried to do is to construct a bizzare an unlikely case for factory zero using vauge and ambigious examples and then present them as the reality of things. The truth is even if our warstock was bombed and we had to get fresh weapons, time would be spent doing field zeroing before we actually go into ops with them (number one rule of ops is to prepare as much as possible). The only way your (non-unique) factory zeroing factor becomes an advantage is when you have to just grab a weapon enemy-at-the-gates style and chiong at the enemy.

Of which I would say, this situtation is so unlikely not to mention bizzare that if you should ever find yourself in it, it's probably better that you shoot a certain NSman officer Storywolf and join the enemy instead of going on such a plan.

In fact the idea of factory zero is to cut down on in-the-box range time spent on zeroing and to this it works pretty well. But to bring it that far and say that the SAR-21 does not need to be zeroed is rubbish, and additionally trying to say that the feature is good by inventing amazing senarios is futher rubbish. And it's even more rubbish to say that the factory-zero offers the SAR-21 over other modern infantry firearms because virtually all firearms in the generation of the SAR-21 are manfactured with factory zero, it's such a common practice that it's somewhat amazing that STK would want to advertise it as a feature at all, and more amazing that storywolf would actually believe it.

But then again it's not too surprising coming from him...

storywolf SG

What makes you think that if your SAR-21 is hit that getting a new weapon is the least of your problems?

Once again you put the cart before the horse.

Your powers of logic it seems, is not kind to you.

Basically you are trying to argue for putting a rollcage and five-point harness on a tricycle because one day the tricycle might go over a cliff.

LOL.

You're messing yourself up, you betrayed yourself when

First and foremost the SAR-21 I was using was one of the later production versions that was improved after the terrible QC compliants that ST got from the units they first introduced the SAR.

Even more so those guys in 6th SIR doing actual POI ops, are those people using beat-up-hand-me-downs?

So beat-up-hand-me-downs? Prehaps an "officer" in SIW might see more of them LOL.

And what has this to do with scopes and iron sights? You are talking about "factory zero" no?

Is there any other person the wolf can fault for being unable to escape the hunter except that the fact that his own stories are just not making sense?

When enemy bombard - of course they will go after all type targets !!! How many airfield we have - of course next is camps ... !!! we don't have that much miliary camps on the list.

Of course we have stock piles which is available when the time we need.

LOL obviously - cream of the crop ? maybe no so - here you complaining you given lousy rifles - maybe you not really the cream of the crop.....!!! Since you cannot even keep your rifle in good condition !!!

storywolf SG

Avoding the question again eh?

Hmm, the point is simple and you are trying your best not to answer it because it's obvious that you are running up a dead end by trying to bring "factory zero" to it's extreme.

But then again it's not too surprising coming from him...

hello if enemy already bomb your camps !!! by the time people can the war stock reach you !!! What do you think enemy is doing - he taking a fucking coffee break !!! He is definitly have been moving at your damn gate !!! Nuts !!!

it is more then factory zeroing - it have to do with our sight which auto lead our eye to do correction.

Please refer to gun expert - David Crane - from defense review magazine. ST have been on road shows in US - they do not do zeroing there, people just shoot and shoot and are able to hit target - please explain that ! How they do it ? Also David himself visited the factory - just pick up one of the new random rifle and head to range - without zeroing he is able to hit his targets !!! As a gun expert - he is happy with it. That where the beauty of the special sight. Are you more qualified then him a professional gun expert ?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

LOL obviously - cream of the crop ? maybe no so - here you complaining you given lousy rifles - maybe you not really the cream of the crop.....!!! Since you cannot even keep your rifle in good condition !!!

You're making a circular argument, instead of considering and addressing the points of your opponent's argument you are trying to divert it by creating a false assumption to divert the merit of your opponent's testimony... this is a very basic and serious flaw of logic.

Ie. your argument is similar to something like this:

A: "The SAR-21 is good, only stupid people claim the SAR-21 is lously"

B: "Why are these people stupid?"

A: "Well, they claim the SAR-21 is lously"

In this case, note that A is trying to disprove the less-then-favourable testimony of people on the SAR-21 by claiming that their testimony is unreliable because they are stupid.

However when asked about why they are like that, A would claim that unreliability comes from the fact that they give unfavourable testimonies on the SAR-21, which of course does nothing to prove his first statement in the first place!

This is circular reasoning, a basic fallacy that I am afraid that in your haste to prove something ambigious like weapon quality, you have commited Storywolf.

In any case, are you saying 3rd Guards and 6th SIR, units that need to be on high redcon at all times are using worn out weapons or that they are not "cream of the crop?"

LOL, self-pwnage by storywolf again.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

What are you talking about?

What makes you think the enemy will not hit your stockpiles of "fresh" weapons, the "fresh" weapons are classified as noncombatants under your laws of conflict is it?

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

This is a big paragraph of plenty of exclaimations and very poorly english, really sad for an SAF "officer".

Firstly can you highlight the weapon distribution plan of the SAF in such an eventuality or are you pulling it out of your behind like most of the things you've come up with in military nuts?

Secondly if our AA defences, one of the densest in the world, can be penetrated, especially around our bases and our initial warstock taken out, what makes you think you can even get your new weapon from the reserve warstock without suffering a similar fate?

it is more then factory zeroing - it have to do with our sight which auto lead our eye to do correction.

LOL this is a pretty rubbish statement. Compared to sights like ACOG or even the British SUSAT sight the SAR-21 sight is pretty primitive.

Please qualify yourself, what do you mean by "our sight which auto lead our eye to do correction"

Do you have a "storywolf internal logic check which auto lead him to do basic logic correction?"

Plese refer to testimonies of SAF soldiers who actually use the product in field conditions.

In any case you answered your own question, they were using fresh, off the line rifles. The whole crux of your argument falters because everyone in here is pointing out that no matter what, eventually the factory zero will slip once the rifle gets enough typical use, and of course to truly take advantage of the rifle, you got to optimize it by zeroing it anyway.

If you are not a bad shot, you should be able to hit targets with the factory zero on a fresh weapon, this is hardly a surprise. We are not arguing that the factory zero does not work, just that it is far less useful then you are trying to make it out to be given that even under moderate useage the weapon itself will need to be rezeroed in time.

In fact you are trying to make a mountain out of a molehill, do you need me to post the testimonies of other gun experts who are less then happy then the SAR-21 when they were evaluating it for export? And also the reason why it has not found much export while it's twin, the TAVOR is leaps and bounds ahead of it?

Heard of the case one evaluator refered to the rifle as "worthless for the artic role", not because it jammed or something but because something as basic as the fire selector could not be operated with gloves?

So what you going to do now? Argue that global warming will eventually make the SAR-21 useful in such situtations just like magical bombs and shells can penetrate our AA and counterbattery defence that seek out our initial warstock will spare our reserve warstock and allow us a chance to use factory zero?

Nice try, but no cigar.

foxtrout8 SG

Something interesting for everyone. Thail soldiers with the SAR-21. Photo posted by oathwn09 @ militaryphotos.net thai soldier with SAR-21

gaoxingdcf07 SG

i spotted like 2 SAR21 in the pics ~~

most of them are still using M16 with short mag ~~~~

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