MAF abandon Steyr after 15-year service

last SG · 2007-11-07T19:31:58+00:00

Third guy from the front - is he not carrying a Steyr ?

Shotgun SG

You willing to pay for my bail?

tankfanatic SG

1 in 88 rounds

thats bad...i wonder why MAF doesnt complain all these year...look at their CAR15A1...all worn out from use.

kotay SG

IINM, most of these school range jams are (more) attributable to faulty magazines rather than weapons

Daniel-Lim SG

He said standard issue. He didn't say "replace".

Just like in SAF the SAR-21 and the M16/M203 are BOTH standard issue to SAF infantry sections. Not that one replaces the other.

The M16 and M4 are basically the same thing with only a length difference. It's hard to draw a clear line. Since all troops operating in Iraq and Afghan are mounted, troops issued with M16 may decide to draw a M4 from the armoury for certain missions or becos the vehicle is cramped etc. Or the grenadier may choose the M4/M203 cos it's lighter, while his section mates stick to full length M16.

They're at war, not on parade. So uniformity is less crucial. And as stated, more and more choose the M4 over the M16 given the choice.

chino65 SG

Again, nobody is saying the HK416 isn't better than the M4. DUHHHH?

Don't need to lecture on the gas system.

Most of the jams in Iraq and Afghanistan are attributed to the sand, so stop lecturing about the gas system.

A lot of the guns jammed on people fresh out of the base.

How can I make you understand this? Rolling Eyes

The jams are blamed on sand, using the wrong lubricant which became sticky goo with the sand. And bad magazines.

Someone has posted a list stating this with the conclusion that 89% of the troops reported confidence in the M4! SAS of 3 countries love the M4.

Only Gary is the squeaking wheel.

chino65 SG

Gary said NO ARMY issues the M4 as standard.

He insists that only SF use M4.

I said the USMC issues it as standard. Did not say it's a blanket replacement of the M16.

I've already made one post to explain this. Fror example, all officers are REQUIRED to use the M4 up to the rank of Col or something. But many other USMC troops are also issued M4 not just the vehicle crews. Anyway, ALL of them ride in one vehiclece or other during ops.

kotay SG

Originally posted by chino65:

Gary said NO ARMY issues the M4 as standard.

Oh really ... he said that?

IINM, this is what he actually posted ...

Originally posted by gary1910:

Lastly as I asked you guys is there any army using M4 as a standard infantry AR???

There is a distinction between "standard issue" and "standard infantry assault rifle".

If you guys can't even read each others postings properly, it's no wonder you're still arguing ... or maybe I'm the one reading everyone wrongly ... in which case - my bad Embarassed

yeah ...

Originally posted by chino65:

I said the USMC issues it as standard. Did not say it's a blanket replacement of the M16.

By this qualification, even the SAF issues a M4 analogue as standard. Heck practically every Army in the world does that ...

or maybe I just misread your original post ...

Originally posted by chino65:

The M4 is ALREADY the standard arm for the US Marines.

Not just "standard issue" or "A standard arm/weapon" but "THE standard arm" ....

my apologies for being pedantic. just explaining why I was seeking clarification from youse ... thanks for qualifying your post.

kotay SG

Originally posted by Daniel-Lim:

He said standard issue. He didn't say "replace".

Just like in SAF the SAR-21 and the M16/M203 are BOTH standard issue to SAF infantry sections. Not that one replaces the other.

I'm cool. As per my previous post, just some idiot being pedantic about semantics. Wink

Since all troops operating in Iraq and Afghan are mounted, troops issued with M16 may decide to draw a M4 from the armoury for certain missions or becos the vehicle is cramped etc. Or the grenadier may choose the M4/M203 cos it's lighter, while his section mates stick to full length M16.

They're at war, not on parade. So uniformity is less crucial. And as stated, more and more choose the M4 over the M16 given the choice.

Coming from the Generic Issue environment of the SAF, I'm not too familiar with Non-SOF US Army/USMC TO&E procedures.

Are you saying that the average grunt in the US Army gets to choose his weapon of choice (M16/M4) on a per mission basis? Must be an interesting armoury he's drawing his arms from then. I'd have thought that such flexibility was the purview of the SOF community.

I have seen US soldiers mail-order bells and whistles for their arms ... but I was under the impression that their standard arms are issued and not chosen at will.

chino65 SG

And now let me quote Mr Wikipedia:

"The basic infantry weapon of the U.S. Marine Corps is the M16 assault rifle family, with a majority of Marines being equipped with the M16A2 or M16A4 service rifles, or more recently the M4 carbinea compact variant."

I quote Gary:

"Lastly as I asked you guys is there any army using M4 as a standard infantry AR??? Remember the operative word is standard infantry, not SF."

Nobody is talking about the M16 being replaced by the M4. But is the M4 on standard issue? According to this quote, YES. So please move on.

Are you being pedantic?

You decide.

chino65 SG

Captioned as a Lcpl paying respects to his Sgt. Weapons Company USMC.

chino65 SG

US Marines in Fallujah, 2007.

chino65 SG

US Marines in Fallujah.

By no means blanket issue. But a VERY STRONG PRESENCE of M4 in Marine units in Iraq.

So are we reaching you Kotay? Or do you want to pursue this pedantic line of debate?

Your demand that a "standard" rifle means everyone use the same thing is OLD FASHIONED and NARROW.

In a typical USMC section today, you may find some or all of the following weapons:
- M16
- M16/M203
- M4
- M4/M203
- M249 SAW
- M240 GPMG
- M21 Designated Marksmen Rifle
- Shotgun

chino65 SG

US Army, Iraq...

chino65 SG

M4 is also present amongst M16-armed USMC units in Afghanistan.

None of these are SF troops or vehicle crewmen.

kotay SG

Originally posted by chino65:

And now let me quote Mr Wikipedia:

"The basic infantry weapon of the U.S. Marine Corps is the M16 assault rifle family, with a majority of Marines being equipped with the M16A2 or M16A4 service rifles, or more recently the M4 carbinea compact variant."

I quote Gary:

"Lastly as I asked you guys is there any army using M4 as a standard infantry AR??? Remember the operative word is standard infantry, not SF."

Nobody is talking about the M16 being replaced by the M4. But is the M4 on standard issue? According to this quote, YES. So please move on.

Are you being pedantic?

You decide.

Dude, I know I'm being pedantic ... mea culpa.

Like I said before, how I read your posts is dependant on how you people write your posts ... so if terms like "THE" standard arm or "standard infantry AR" are used ... how would you propose I read it?

Originally posted by chino65:

By no means blanket issue. But a VERY STRONG PRESENCE of M4 in Marine units in Iraq.

So are we reaching you Kotay? Or do you want to pursue this pedantic line of debate?

Your demand that a "standard" rifle means everyone use the same thing is OLD FASHIONED and NARROW.

But hey, as I've said before. I have no problem with your qualification on the USMC issue.

When I thought you meant that the USMC is going the way of the US Army, I asked for your clarification.

Now that I understand that you meant it is only a standard issue arm just like the way the M249, M240 are also standard issue (but not used/issued to everyone), I have no problem with that.

Imagine if I said that the M240 is THE standard arm for the USMC ... how would you have read that? More accurate if I had said the standard issue MG. How we understand the posts is dependant on how they are worded ...

kotay SG

Nice pics btw ... but I do recall looking at exercise pictures of the USMC in Australia and also Thailand ... IINM, I don't remember seeing as much M4s.

Could it be that the prevalence of M4s in the USMC is a theatre specific thing and not a reflection of USMC TO&E in general?

[edit for the following]

I could post carefully selected pictures to prove my point but I'm lazy ... if any of you are interested, you can scroll through the galleries yourself and play spot the M4 ...

Pics from the homepage of the 31st MEU based in Okinawa

Exercise Talisman Saber Pics

Exercise Cobra Gold Pics

Pics of Marines in Fallujah/Iraq

what the heck ... I'll do one picture cos I really like this one ...

More pics from MOD Aus can be found here...

Exercise Talisman Sabre 2005

Excercise Talisman Sabre 2007

Exercise Crocodile 2003

tankfanatic SG

\
isnt that M16A3?

kotay SG

What makes you say that?

tankfanatic SG

there M16A3

kotay SG

I thought this is what a M16A4 looks like ...

Flat top, pic rails (and seemingly typical for the USMC, ACOG sights and the foregrip thingy ...)

IINM, the essential difference for the A3 is full auto instead of 3-round burst.

I will leave it to our weaponsmiths across the pacific to answer this when they wake up ...

Smile

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