MAF abandon Steyr after 15-year service

last SG · 2007-11-07T19:31:58+00:00

Third guy from the front - is he not carrying a Steyr ?

CM06 SG

Is it a good weapon? Yes.

Is it a good enough weapon? Yes

Is it a good enough weapon to kill you if it's pointed at you? YES!

(Excuse me this is not BF2, hit a bit can still run around)

Besides, one more thing, will -we- know how to use the m4 if we pick it up? Yes

Daniel-Lim SG

IDF used the M16 series for decades without serious jam issues.

So stop being obstinate. Rolling Eyes

cloud210 SG

do we share the same magazine and bullets? yes? Confused

tankfanatic SG

how many parts have comonality with m16? : 80%

how many m16 they have? : too many

..... does everyone in their armed forces knew how to operate M16? : yes , because its their basic training weapon.

Daniel-Lim SG

Originally posted by Shotgun:
It is true that the HK416 addresses the key weakness of the M4, which is the direct gas blow back. And the HK416 is being recognized as the replacement for the M4 by SF communities.

No one is denying the HK416 isn't better, that's the whole point.

But we are not talking about the HK416 since that possibility no longer exists for MAF.

Either through cost or other reasons, MAF is NOT getting the HK416.

Only someone really dim like GARY keeps going on about something that is no longer gonna happen.

Originally posted by Shotgun:...that pisses me off the most are still the no-feeding, where no round is chambered, and the bolt carrier is left the forward position.

Im no pro when it comes to guns, but i figured that wasn't due to a magazine fault since I loaded those rounds myself and felt the spring tension on those magazines.

Actually a dirty bolt causes half or double feed. No feed is usually caused by dented magazine lips.

Originally posted by Shotgun:
In any case, I spent the next half n hour cleaning n scraping off carbon off my bolt carrier assembly before I went for my night shoot. The rifle worked like a charm there after.

I would pick a HK416 over an M4, but if the MAF can't afford one, the M4 isn't bad at all.

Originally posted by Shotgun:
Is the M4 a good weapon? I've never handled it, but seeing its wide adoption, I think it has to be good. But it has problems that plague the whole AR-15 series of weapons, problems that have been fixed by new generation of assault rifles and carbines.

he M4 is the weapon of choice by professional who do have a choice - like the SAS. And they chose the M4.

tankfanatic SG

anyway they can replace the upper receiver assemblies of M4 with the HK416 ...just minor modification.....U.S. Special Forces battalion based in Okinawa did that by buying the upper receiver and modified it in their machine shop...

chino65 SG

My guess:

A typical MAF section, 9 men broken into 2 fire teams:

Sect Cmdr - M4 w scope
Sect 2IC - M4 w scope

LAW - M4 w scope
M16/M203
SAW

M16/M203
LAW - M4 w scope
SAW

Plenty of weapons that can reach out and touch you wherever. Plus in the jungle, you can't see clearly beyond 50m.

It is not as if every member of MAF will be using only the M4.

Shotgun SG

Okay, lets just sum up my view, and thats the last of it, at least from me.

The M4 is a good and established weapon.

However, whether a short barreled weapon such as it is suitable as a standard infantry issue is questionable due to its reduced wounding capability, and reduced engagement distance.

Point noted, in the jungle, one can hardly see 50 meters. But not all combat will take place in the jungles, and even within the jungle, but there is no manueverability restriction for a full length M-16.

US Army units are still equipped with M-16A3s despite its full length, and remain to be actively engaged in FIBUA environments in Iraq and Afghanistan. Note that they do have a mixed complement of M4s and full length weapons as well. Of course we are not saying that MAF would equip all their riflemen with M4s... but as a standard issue, that is what one is implying.

Is an M4 the best choice for a standard infantry issue, my opinion is no. But I guess people like me would get used to me one day, like how the old guys who converted from the M-14s to M-16s did. I bet many of them were kicking a fuss over using "smaller" bullets.

The reason to MAF's selection of the M4, as I've said much earlier, is that they probably don't have much of a choice. There are not many systems out there that would sell their licenses to manufacture. HK won't sell the 416's license, thats for sure. If they did, the other questions is whether MAF wants to pay that much for it? I heard the other tempting offer they got was for the AK-101. Any details on this?

tankfanatic SG

my guess is they are going to give the M4 to the light brigade..such as the Para or recon unit…and they will use also M16A2 for the other standard infantry battalion

gary1910 SG

Those standard annual markmanship ranges that most SAF soldiers went thru are just markmanship training.

Those M16 firing does not reflect how reliable the weapon will be , as it does not reflect real combat situation.

For example 300m rundown, IIRC 7 mags of 3rds= 21 rds.

Usually, each firer will go thru one run down in the morning, i.e. 21 rds , then you wait till the afternoon for the 2nd rundown in the afternoon and perhaps even 3rd rundown.

In between , there will be waiting, i.e. after every rundown there is more than sufficient time for the weapon to cool down.

But in real combat situation, you could fire more than 100 rds within 10mins, becos of that, the heat generated is much more higher than the 21 rds.

How will the weapon perform in such condition?

I believe it is worst as compare to ranges.

So the experiences in ranges cannot be used as a yardstick to gauge the reliability of a weapon in a real combat situation.

Shotgun SG

I do recall Colt identifying an issue with their M4s, where the bolt lugs actually broke off after 10,000 rounds. It was only pertaining to the M4s due to the shortened length or something. I cant remember clearly what it was though..

tankfanatic SG

Those M16 firing does not reflect how reliable the weapon will be , as it does not reflect real combat situation.

they have use M16 for combat...surely they know its capability

tankfanatic SG

im sorry i made a mistake….thos pic that i post some are not M4….its M16A1 Carbine or Car15A1 or Colt M653…try to look which is which…

chino65 SG

Completely unrelated to the previous posts, here is a crazy twist to the M4 story.

I have previously seen some pics of supposedly PLA troops in the jungle with M4. They were wearing camo and the old style PLA helmet with the metal cap badge.

They were covered in mud.

Though I knew that China produces M16 and M4 copies, I thought those pictures of muddy "PLA with M4" were just very dedicated Chinese air-softers.

But then, I just found this pic at Defense Forum again captioning a M4-carrying soldier as PLA. So what are they up to? First they cahnge their entire line of uniform from No3 to No4 all to western style. Then they adopt the US-style helmet.

If they fight with Taiwan, just by uniform alone it is impossible to tell them apart. But they take this even further by arming their covert troops with M4s. Hmm.. what's the game plan?

tankfanatic SG

that dude looks caucasian to me

kotay SG

Not picking sides here ... I think both Gary and Chino have good points but are just not seeing each others' points

Originally posted by gary1910:
Lastly as I asked you guys is there any army using M4 as a standard infantry AR???

Remember the operative word is standard infantry, not SF.[/b]

But this is too good to pass up ...

From US Army (army.mil) Fact File on the M4 Carbine

"It achieves more than 85 percent commonality with the M16A2 rifle and will replace all .45 caliber M3 submachine guns, selected M9 pistols, and M16 series rifles.""

Looking through the Iraq pics on Milphoto.net, the M4 really looks to be becoming more prevalent these days in line units.

chino65 SG

On the contrary, he looks definitely Asian.

chino65 SG

Originally posted by kotay:
Not picking sides here ... I think both Gary and Chino have good points but are just not seeing each others' points

But this is too good to pass up ...

From US Army (army.mil) Fact File on the M4 Carbine

"It achieves more than 85 percent commonality with the M16A2 rifle and [b]will replace all .45 caliber M3 submachine guns, selected M9 pistols, and M16 series rifles.""

Looking through the Iraq pics on Milphoto.net, the M4 really looks to be becoming more prevalent these days in line units.[/b]

The M4 is ALREADY the standard arm for the US Marines. The IDF had the M4 on widespread issue. THough I won't quote IDF as an example as they seldom officially standardise anything.

I though it was good enough to quote that the SAS of 3 countries use it as standard. But apparently, this holds no water for gary that the M4 is indeed a very good weapon despite certain US army members making noise.

The IDF used the M16 system in the desert as the weapon of choice over other system for decades without problem.

...

The US army, complain after a one or two years.

They also only started complaining as the battle in Iraq got bogged down and the troops became frustrated. So go figure.

So some experts looked into the problem and found that the jams happened to previously unfired weapons. So this had nothing to do with the so-called "gas problem". It was a combination of sand and the wrong lubricant the US army issued.

gary as usual sticks to his guns in the face of facts.

kotay SG

My understanding is that the M16A4 is still the primary AR for the USMC ... I could be wrong but I'd appreciate if you can share you sources.

specialOps SG

Haha .. its funny how the M-16/M4 supporters keep misquoting things.

In the US - The marines and everyone else preferred the AK they confiscated, cause the M-16/M4 jams easily on sand. This was widely reported on US Army New, Pentagon Channel TV, etc.

In IDF - Same problem with the US, that's why they developed the Tavor/TAR-21.

Almost everywhere else, people are choosing something else to replace the M-16.

Malaysia themselves picked up the Steyr over their M-16, and now they're going back to the M4, that's why its funny.

It wouldn't be surprised if one day they report that some angmoh treated someone coffee to buy the M4.

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