Ultimax being phased out?

last SG · 2007-10-12T07:11:21+00:00

Oh, me too. I served in Inf Bde S2, Bn S2 and rifle platoon.

I_love_my_toilet SG

there is more than meet the eye Wink

caleb_chiang SG

no idea... Rolling Eyes

specialOps SG

ammo availability and ops details…classified . Outta bounds.

davechng SG

Well... it is expensive to incorporate all these features into the design! I still think it is not a good idea not to be able to hand load your drum!?? espeically when you are resupplied,! it may come in ammo boxes or stripper like the NATO or US bandoleers!

DaveC!

deathscythe99 SG

I think the more impt issue would be how spare magazines for those with SAR21s and those with Ultimax could be passed ard…because in war, when the gunner is out of bullets, it would be so much easier if his mate can pass him a spare mag which can fit into his gun ASAP.

SpecOps87 SG

Agree...mebbe time for a Ultimax Ultimate. Can fit SAR21 and M16 mags, be belt fed or drum fed as well. Thing is...do we even have 5.56 on links?

storywolf SG

SpecOps87, the right way to use SAW - is automatic mode fire short 3-5 burst !!! even for machine gun also the same, as this is to just use the needed ammo to do that job. Control burst allow you to control you rounds and gun easier to hit the target. If 3-5 rounds did not take down that target !!! you thing an extra 10 rounds will be do it?

Rambo may look good on TV but they way he is firing, he is not going to hit anything as he went full auto .... after the first few rounds, he most proability went wide on the target.

chino65 SG

Most pictures of the Ultimax that I have seen being used by foreign armies and mercenaries featured the 100-round drum.

These people wouldn't be buying the Ultimax-100 only to use it as a Ultimax-30.

Though I, too, had my doubts about the drum, I can only assume that it works well enough, for people like the Indos to have bought quantities of it.

Interesting thing about belted 5.56 ammo. The AFP (Philippines Armed Forces) bought Minimis over the Ultimax and then found that belted 5.56 ammo was either too expensive or scarce since the Philippines didn't produce them. And 2 people on the Timawa site reported that they preferred the Ultimax over the Minimi as the Ultimax was lighter and more accurate, and tons cheaper. But most of all, it didn't require the production of belted ammo.

But drums vs belt is a debate requiring its own thread and it's been done many times and on this forum, too.

I agree with Dave's comment about hand-loading the drum but as someone pointed out, you can hand load up to 50rds or something.

I'm sure Sullivan considered all the different drum systems before deciding on the current Ultimax system. No drum system had worked well so far.

The Russians traditionally favoured drums but even they had given it up. They had drums for their PPD and PPsh-41 SMGs. They had drums for their RPK (SAW AK-47). The 75-rd drums were "heavy, expensive and hard to load" according to Modern Firearms. They were loaded the traditional way from the lip.

THe RPD and German MG-34 snail drums aren't really drums as they nothing more than a container for the belt ammo.

AS far as I know, the Germans never used drum mags except for one on the MP-18 SMG during the WW2.

I also remember seeing pics of a HK LMG with a big capacity box mag with a transparent back.

Now only the PLA (QBZ-95 LMG) and SAF (Ultimax100) operate drums as far as I can recall offhand.

The US military had experience with 1 drum system in the Thompson SMG and was not satisfied with the Thompson drum. They also used the now-dead "pan" magazine in the Lewis Gun.

So it will be a real surprise if the US military does decide on the Ultimax. It is often very hard to change deeply entrenched perceptions as we all know too well. Even though it was designed by Jim Sullivan.

Will the Ultimax be phased out was a question I asked before. One of its main advantage of sharing mags with the rifleman is gone out the window with the STUPID decision to adopt non-M16 mags for the SAF SAR-21.

Anyone who says a better M16 mag can't be made should realise that our old-fashioned SAF aluminium mags aren't used by most countries still using STANAG mags. HK have made stainless steel ones. Diemaco have their own etc etc.

SpecOps87 SG

My point is being in FOFO or FIBUA mate...sometimes u just need that overwhelming firepower to either mow enemies down or simply keep their heads down.

LazerLordz SG

Our static suppressing fire doctrine does not require the SAW. The SAW is meant for mobile back-up automatic fire.

chino65 SG

If I am suddenly ambushed or other desperate scenario I sure hope the SAW guy isn't thinking of conserving ammo. If he has to empty a whole drum then he has to. And I think the Ultimax will still be accurate in short range fullauto long bursts due to its low rate of fire and controllability. You can think about lecturing him on ammo conservation if you are still alive after contact.
Mr. Green

ijack022399k SG

well, if u ever been to army served and operate in a section, u know tat SAW is a heavy weapon, thou it looks skinny, the primary role of a SAW gunner is to provide flank security and back up the section (correct me if im wrong if there’s any lao chiao peng, i left sispec long ago), to jus switch to auto n full burst is not gonna hit anythin, short burst is alot alot more accurate…

CM06 SG

The saw might be heavier than the m16 but the fact ther's a foregrip i always found it easier to carry and swing around since the CoG is more balance. Compared to the M203/M16 that i always carry....different stroke different folks i guess.

The SAW can put a round (or three) up your nostrils at 100m. With tracers, i dont see much of an accuracy problem for even further distance. considering it's amazingly low recoil. Saw is a good suppressive fire that can actually hit something. You dont stand around when someone is firing bursts. One shot might miss...but a cluster of three to five....

My 2 cents worth.

specialOps SG

Yup, The SAW is really very very accurate. I totally love it.

If only it comes with a scope....I would have preferred it to the SAR-21 as my personal weapon.

SpecOps87 SG

Ok…given that even if the gunner fires a 5/6 round burst of suppression, that gives him 5/6 bursts tops…how do you hold and keep people’s head’s down when you reload? I don’t have the slightest idea.

chino65 SG

Which army were you in? Mr. Green

The SAW that I know is very light. Only the balance is not so good cos the back very light and the front is heavier. If you find it heavy you must be really weak. It weighs about the same as the M16/M203 package.

Even the small guys in my reservist platoon had no problem with the SAW.

The SAW primary role is to give the section its own effective automatic fire during the assault - that's why it is called Section Assault Weapon.

I can provide flank security with a SAW, or a rifle or M203. But I cannot use the rifle or the M203 to provide automatic fire during the assault.

To brush the cobwebs from your brain, the SAW can only fire in automatic mode, there's no switch for burst fire.

And contrary to what you said, our SAW can hit everything that you can aim at even if you squeeze the trigger and don't let go until your magazine is empty.

Esepcially in the shorter range context of an ambush.

Don't believe me? Go check out the Ultimax video on Youtube. The guy squeezed off 1 whole C-mag drum while standing up and never released the trigger. And he was writing "S" shapes in the water with the bullets.

Can't hit anything? Mr. Green

Question is, "U" ever been to army?

justcooler SG

Hey chino65 mate, you are speaking to a person that know nuts about U100.

I would say that U100 is one of the best weapon developed by ST. Light, accurate and if you have spare barrel and lots of ammo, can perform quite a good support role.

Only down fall is the pentration power of 5.56 rounds, limits it's role as a firebase weapons.

What ever the matter, U100 and M203 remain my best choice of weapon in open area objective assault.

storywolf SG

Overwhelming firepower does not mean holding down the trigger and shoot ! just for effect !!! how many bullets it need to take a man down. If he is behind cover you cannot hit him mean cannot, even one whole magazine also useless, if you can hit him, 3-5 rounds already done, why rambo to show off.

Effective fire is the word to use for saw ... !!! Just shoot in burst to get the job done, not more not less.

In a fibua situation, everyone is most of the time under cover, how overwhelming firepower can a ultimax get - limited by the penetation of 5.56 rounds ...... first you do not have that type of ammo to waste, second you overwhelming firepower, too attract overwhelming attention, which enemy would have clearly pinpoint your location and throw everything to get you first.

storywolf SG

GMPG is a heavy weapon not saw !!!

Ijack022399k, it is obvious from your statement, - "that just switch to auto n full burst is not gonna hit anything " already can tell you do not have any experience with Ultimate 100. You just taking your experience with M16.

What you descript is M16 - which is hard to control when you go full auto and that the reason why we have ultimax100 instead. For ultimax - it is already auto, so no switching to full auto- just safe and auto mode.

I have shoot so much with ultimax 100 that it is the best rifle i ever fire. It controlability in auto fire is just unbelievable. i have shot in stand up postion using one hand like rambo in a range before, and let go 100rds at one go, it is so controlable that i use it to cut 3 target in 1/2 ..... right in the middle.

Full automatic mode, you going to hit everything still, but then you are just wasting your rounds, as is 3-5 rounds already done the job, why waste more.

CM06 SG

For the fellow (i cant quote the buttons all disappear for some reason) who asked what's the use of a 30 rd mag for a saw when you squeeze at 5 to at most 10 times you have to reload.

Ans: You are not rambo. You provide cover fire equivalent to -THREE- M16s. So while -they reload- you fire bit by bit. When you reload, you have three people to cover you. Imagine what you can do if you have the 100 rd drum.

Regarding the penetration of the 5.56mm.

If i remember correctly, the barrel length of the SAW is much longer than our M16s or SAR for that matter. Increase barrel length = increase power as well no? I follow the concept for sniper rifle. What you cannot shoot through with M16, you have a been chance doing with the SAW.

Regarding our SAWs accuracy, I say again, most decent first timers can probably hit you with a ten round spray while experts can put rounds up your nostrils @ 100 metre one handed. It's like hack with aim-bot.

One thing though, you can clean until you grow old and you will still find carbon in one of those things!

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