More Leo 2s

last SG · 2007-07-05T15:04:10+00:00

not to discourage you but American are not better at preparing for "coordinated event" they are good at individual.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

The problem with China is that you don't know which of their abilites are real and which are on paper only.

For example, if their press on their R&D is to be believed, China would somehow have the most advanced just about everything in the world today, and somehow I find those claims dubious, kinda like the super Pakistani penetrators.

Thing is, no accountability. Their customers aren't as stringent as the West anyway and they can get away by claiming fantastic abilities to their clients, who want to believe what they are hearing.

So will their stuff work or end up like the much hyped GPS jammers the Iraqis deployed (that got destroyed by GPS bombs) is something we can't know until the shooting starts.

But one thing I am reasonably sure of is that China makes cheap clones of much more expensive stuff at reasonable quality.

Fatum SG

China got pwnzed (sort of) by the viets during their 1979 border war ... basically because of non-existent air-support, rest assured that they have absorbed the lesson well .... they are developing their own attack choppers I believe, and with swarms of multi-role flankers, I'd hardly discount their air support .... throwing a few full regiments of flankers at a US carrier battle group at once should be sufficient to overwhelm it .... Laughing .... or how about firing multiple salvos of silkworm with local EMP weapons ? .... okay, so ship defences take out 99% of the missiles, but it's enough that one gets through .... no american dies, the fleet limps back to pearl harbour with no casualties, no mangled bodies and outraged american public on CNN, finito, the war in the taiwan straits is over ... and don't forget the subs too .... Laughing

and to counter american air-support ? ... like I said ... China's strength is in their artillery ... that includes ADA .... they pioneered super cheapo, one tube throw away manpads ... cheap enough that everyone in a regiment of troops can have one, the way we'd get our matadors during war time ... so what if the pK of those cheap knock offs may be only 11 or 12 %, everyone in a platoon fires off a tube, and there won't be much apaches left in the sky after the salvo ... Laughing

The US army's military might, supreme as they are right now, are only good enough to take on second rate banana republics, and little despots around the world ... taking on another major nation is quite another thing altogether ...

Fatum SG

JDAMS do HAVE inertial guidance back-ups ..... and I thought the "dazzlers" the Iraqis used were primitive 1st gen russian stuff ? ... Laughing

true, they like to toot their own horns (who doesn't ... ) ... but let's not forget that we're talking about a nation that's been launching satellites, exploded their own atomic bombs, and became the third country to launch someone into space (even if it's on something copied from the russians) ... I know, we laugh at their cheapo knock-offs of GM cars, and curse at their poisonous food exports ... but discount them at your own peril ... like I said, I think 15-20 years from now, we'd be able to visit the spratley islands to fish ... but via a chinese company .... (which, by the way, is already a reality ... one of my PRC friends told me he got his diving license there ... staging out of hainan ... Laughing )

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

Well, one must remember, that bombers like the B-1B, are designed for high altitude strikes out of range of most anti-air weapons. Plus, the B-2s are stealthy for the purpose of deep penetration strikes.

And remember, the US military also possesses EMP weapons... if the Chinese use it, the US is bound to... Let's not discount the fact that the Tomahawks are a proven platform with much greater range than the Silkworms. The US Navy will have to be within view of the Chinese shore for the Silkworms to be used.

And attack Helicopters are used together with the army... they don't go around alone.... I would like to see the infantry deal with the AFVs while they try to shoot.

Do note that the US Army and Navy trained to deal with the swarm tactics of the Red Army... And that the US still has plenty of nukes if it comes to it.

Fatum SG

high-altitude bombers also make fat juicy targets for flankers ... Laughing ... methinks the US will never achieve air-superiority in an east asian theatre the way they did over iraq or even the balkans ....

and then again, in the end, it's still an equation of resolve and means ... let's say both sides uses EMP weapons, two US carrier battle groups get taken out .... the war is over for the US ... but what equivalent targets does the US EMP weapons have ? ... the chinese can still cross over the straits in a mass of small boats and still swarm over taiwan .... Laughing

and attack choppers ? ... remember the incident in Iraq, earlier on in the war, when a whole battalion of apaches had to turn back because of concentrated ground small arms fire ? ... (with one shot down, and a number of others taken out of future missions ? ) .... a helicopter is just that ... however heavily armoured the bodies, put a shell burst near enough to rotors and what not, it'll go down ...

and what about national resolve then ? ... let's say it's taiwan or the spratleys ... both places are thought of as "home soil" by any chinese ... flip out a navigation chart from any chinese-flagged ship and you'll see most of the south china sea marked at EEZ and territorial waters ... couple that with the kind of rabid nationalism we see in our dear forumers like dreamryb, hellomoto ... and the sort who'll riot and tear up sushi resturants ? ...

what about US resolve then ? ... arrange a few mangled bodies shots on cable television and you'll have plenty more cindy sheehans camping outside camp david ... Laughing

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

I wonder if the Chinese would like to trade their economy for 2 aircraft carriers. You have heard of Pyrrhic victories? Ya? Do the Chinese want to live without power for a few mths?

And how are the Flankers to attack the stealth bombers if they can't even find them? You think the stealth doesn't affect the missile guidance systems also ah? And these Flankers aren't even to the standard of the SU-35MKKs sold to the Indians.

And oi, I did say the Apaches are to work in combined arms. Where did I say they are to work alone? I even said having the AFVs escort them.

Fatum SG

stealth bombers are not magic .... remember the F-117 in bosnia ? ... Laughing

oh well ... I'm not here to engage in debate with you lah ... my point is to high-light China as an emerging security threat to the whole region ... as politically incorrect it is to say so ... they'll profess to be committed to peace and all that ... but once they think they've gained enough weight .... you watch .... Laughing

btw, what I said about visiting the spratleys from hainan is true .... I had a sinking feeling when my chinese friend told me about it .....

unspoilt south sea paradise anyone ? .... protected by the PLAN ! ...

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

How on earth conventional EMP weapons can take out a CBG, when US naval warships are shielded against such a very thing as part of the design specs that require them to survive a nearby nuclear strike is a question that Fatum should really answer.

And this is not to mention conventional EMP weapons have very little power compared to their nuclear counterparts. The EMP that can be generated is limited to the amount of explosive/energy in the warhead and hence it is only useful over a small area due to the inverse square law.

Note that EMP weapons are used against unshielded, soft targets (civvie targets and comms) and not really an option for properly shielded equipment, which is exactly the condition you find in most modern military stuff.

At best EMP weapons are prehaps good for causing a radar blackout/jam while the chinese set up their real antiship warheads. However to get EMP weapons close enough to cause problems is as good as scoring a direct hit on a ship and in that case you might as well use a real warhead.

Seems like somebody's impression of EMP warfare leaves much to be desired.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Who said stealth was magic? It is a useful tool to gain a tatical advantage on the enemy, and only a fool would not want such a tool.

Your logic is like saying M1 Abrams can be defeated by IEDs, hence there's no point in it having armour and we might as well go into a tank battle on an open-topped buggy. Laughing

The point is not if stealth can be defeated, but if it can be used to get the job done, and by all indications the answer is yes.

You may not want to engage in debate, but the very least you can do is not to put up retarded points and then expect that they don't need defending.

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

Ah.. damn.. I forgot about the NBC protection which also hardens equipment against EMP including radar.

But yes, EMP weapons used in China will not be a good thing for them.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

In any case Fatum's "arguments" reek plenty of the strawman type, in which case one wonders if one should even listen to his "oh well ... I'm not here to engage in debate with you lah ... my point is to high-light China as an emerging security threat to the whole region ... " vibe.

Straw man

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw-man argument" is to create a position that is easy to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent. A straw-man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it is in fact a misleading fallacy, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.

An example of a straw man fallacy:

Person A: I don't think children should run into the busy streets.
Person B: I think that it would be foolish to lock children up all day.

Person A: And how are the Flankers to attack the stealth bombers if they can't even find them? You think the stealth doesn't affect the missile guidance systems also ah?
Person B: stealth bombers are not magic .... remember the F-117 in bosnia ?

coolant SG

No doubt b-1B is a good bomber but its not used in such a way, PLA SAMs is able to shoot down an even higher flyer like US made U-2 as early as in 1962, Counting B-1B flying high to elude SAMs is totally out of option. B-2 stealthy is not really Stealthy in absolute term, its in low observation which means its still detectable, if not by a short wave X-band radar, it can be picked up by long wave radar like meter wave radar in a long distance.

And remember, the US military also possesses EMP weapons... if the Chinese use it, the US is bound to... Let's not discount the fact that the Tomahawks are a proven platform with much greater range than the Silkworms. The US Navy will have to be within view of the Chinese shore for the Silkworms to be used.

PLA already deployed its own LACM, Janes reported such Chinese made LACM as early as in 2004, it reported then the Chinese version Tomahawks, namely DH-10, has a range of 2500 kms with the CEP less than 10 meter. And again, Silkworms are not only been launched ashore, it can be airborned. It can be launched from Submarines like type039, one of which surfaced only miles away from US A/C carriers not long ago. Besides AshM & LACM, therere TBM, Chinese just shot down one of their own satellite by using such a middle range TBM. Can a CVBG travels faster than a satellite or the main airbase of US pacific forces are not within the range of those missile? I mean, PLA is no way to match US force in a global base, but, if US forces need to play at peoples door side, then its another story.

And attack Helicopters are used together with the army... they don't go around alone.... I would like to see the infantry deal with the AFVs while they try to shoot.

Helicopter only reins if you control the airspace plus the group SAMs are totally cleared. Chinese manufacture a whole range of man portable air-defense systems, some of which like FN-6 are even exported to the north neighbor. See the AH-64s performance in Iraq, even some RPG is able to bring it down. Ill reasonably doubt how effect those helicopters to deal with a armor force well protected by should launched or vehicle mounted missiles.

Do note that the US Army and Navy trained to deal with the swarm tactics of the Red Army... And that the US still has plenty of nukes if it comes to it.

You destroy enemy 1 time is no different from enemy destroy you 100 times.

sand king SG

132 Leopard 2A4 (102 Leopard 2A4 + 30 Spares) (On order)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopard_2
source

Fatum SG

Ah yes General Tyrannosaur .... I see mine posting my view of China's military might has offended your sensibilities, eh ? ....

you're always right of course .... you're the expert in this forum, aren't you General ? ... Laughing

neways ... spratley cruise anyone ? ...

LazerLordz SG

if you pay for the boat and tackle?

I'll provide the barbie. Laughing

Fatum SG

right now pay in ringgit still a bit ex ... wait till when we pay in renminbi lah ... Laughing

LazerLordz SG

never say never, later the RMB loses its cheap lustre..then how? Laughing

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Actually I have no problem with China's military might, it is just people with a lack of common sense and thinking pseudowitty one-liners can help them get away with posting rubbish that offend most common sensibilities in here.

Unless you have something that say on the military prowless on either side that makes sense, then please restrict your RMB better or whatever you have to CC or Speakers Corner, in which there would be plenty of people willing to take on your hyperbole. But while you are in here, please refrain from making yourself look like a fool by talking about fanciful EMP weapons managing to take out a carrier battle group, and then expecting people to buy it... Laughing

It would do you good not to join the ranks of lionnoisy.

Basic logic anyone? ...

Fatum SG

ah yes, of course, the great armchair general knows it all ... *scratch your balls ... there ... feels better ? .... only you're correct, and everyone else's talking rubbish, and doesn't know what he's talking about, right ? ... Laughing ... have you ever taken a second look at your posts ? ... and I don't mean this one .... if you like continue with your mental masturbation in here by all means go ahead ... cos of course I don't have a smart pill to give you to help you understand me ...

Shotgun SG

The F-117s stealth was only stealth within certain flight perimeters. Unfortunately, they had to fly outside a certain portion of that perimeter, due to constricted airspace. Rumor has it, the Serbs knew that and specifically set up an ambush to down a -117.

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