What's wrong with the SAR-21?

last SG · 2007-03-10T11:34:43+00:00

In case anyone's interested, here's a video of a chamber failure on an AR-15. That guy's lucky he wasn't a lefty....

ktk SG

i agree 100%.

of cuz, if the spec ops use lousy ammo or reallty gets a KABOOM during an operation, i seriously doubt the overall quality of the unit...

|-|05| SG

Originally posted by ktk:
[b]

i agree 100%.

of cuz, if the spec ops use lousy ammo or reallty gets a KABOOM during an operation, i seriously doubt the overall quality of the unit... [/b]

shit happens man......maybe some idiot screwed up ammo allocation and give them a box of lousier ammo? Who know's better safe then sorry.

beavan SG

there's no better ammo and lousy ammo. there's just ok ammo and screwed up faulty ammo.

i think nobody in their right mind would want to manufacture faulty ammo.

Joshua1975 SG

other than what had been said by all on this topic, just one more things ppl had miss out.

THE MAGAZINE. think of the cost. it just so simple.

Mr. Green

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

The Indian procurement process has been anything but apolitical. Not to mention, most of them were botched with charges of bribes etc. I think some Russian arms procurement also got thrown into the mix. Realistically, India isn't really a rational customer.

I believe that at one point of time, our FH-2000 howitzer was running against Bofors. The latter one, only for the entire deal to be mired with corruption charges and what not.

LazerLordz SG

You fight a war this year so that you can sell your weapons next year. Wink

India + Israeli collaboration is quite strong. I dare say we are third after Israel + USA and Israel + India. They do a lot of unreported tech transfers, which is both good and bad. I will not complain about that because it has benefits too.

India is a mountainous region, where are the special forces likely to be stationed? Kashmir and the Kush region, mainly dusty and cold temperate deserts/mountainous terrain. TAR-21 is much lighter and is proven in desert conditions during the Lebanon conflict.

Thirdly, India is a major power, but they don't really have a good track record in procurement policies.Sad to say, battle tested weapons will always get more sales than technically excellent weapons in countries that are in conflict or potentially getting into one.

Note that our weapon upgrades or weapon systems were sold to states that are not at war in their recent history or likely to be doing so in the future, e.g (Turkey : Yavuz/Terrex, UAE : SRAMS, Brazil : F-5 upgrades etc) with the exception of the Balkan conflict and the Croat use of the Ultimax.

lionnoisy SG

we shall assess any weapon on the whole.
Not just pin point few good or bad points.

2.On the whole,is SAR21 better than M16 we are familiar?

Any differences to new recruit or old birds?

3.If we think SAR21 ,on the whole ,is good and many here
have used it for some times,then we shall have confidences
on it!!

4.SAR 21 is OK and can do the job!!

5.I have seen even small lady and auntie can shoot SAR21 live rounds
and they find it fun.
I dunt know if they shoot M16 or other rifles.

moca SG

SG Ty

Not that I doubt you, mate, but how come all these reports of chamber explosions with SAR-21?

I have been a total of about 15 years in SAF as active and reservist. Served in S2 and in the infantry platoons. And everyone I know have served.

But in all that time, I have never encountered, or even heard of, a chamber explosion happening. In fact, NOBODY ever mentioned the term "chamber explosion".

Obviously, this is not because they never happened. But they must've been SO RARE, that you never hear of it. In fact, "chamber explosion" only became a buzz word here on this forum because of the debate about the SAR-21 kevlar plate.

Did you read about these chamber explosions somewhere, hearsay or what?

And if chamber explosions are INDEED happening with such frequencies with the SAR-21, NO WONDER THE INDIANS DIDN'T CONSIDER THE SAR-21.

Fingolfin_Noldor SG

I remember one time where there was a spate of these things but apparently it was due to faulty ammo.

I'm not sure if that was the same incident.

gary1910 SG

The reason why there is talks abt chamber explosions is becos unlike conventional designs, the firer actually has his/her face basically resting against the chamber ( bolt carrier, round etc) in a bullpup design AR.

Therefore there is this concern for safety against chamber explosions in all bullpup design and not just only for SAR-21.

SAF is extremely kiasu in safety has 2 safety features in our SAR-21, one is the kevlar shield plate against the face of the firer and the 2nd is the patented high pressure vent hole that will released pressure in a rare occurrence of a chamber explosion , I dun think any other AR has such design!!!!

Therefore, it is maybe even safer than M-16 when a rare chamber explosion do occur.

I remember a few years back in Army Open House, SAF setup a firing range for the public (including aunties and children as young perhaps 8~9yo) to test fire the M-16s and SAR-21s with live rds, the weapons were all chained up of course and 5 rds were fired for abt every min and the half or so for whole day, more than a thousand rds were fired a day per weapon, in fact , one NSF has complained to me abt the need to clean the overused weapon after every day!!!

So, dun assume just becos SAF is KS & has these additional safety features in SAR-21 means it is prone to chamber explosion.

If it is so, do you think that SAF which is super KS in safety will accept the weapon into SAF and even allow public firing of it by children etc in Army Open House???

I dun think so.

spartan6 SG

My buddy incident was due 2 faulty ammo

LazerLordz SG

Moca, there were chamber explosions with the SAR21.

moca SG

Any more info?

LazerLordz SG

I can't say lah, opsec. But it's not entirely the weapon's fault..

in fact, chamber explosions for any other weapon is not entirely weapon-faulted, because user + ammo and other circumstances are always factors..

Shotgun SG

Okay, I'll be a lil more thankful for lugging around that extra weight the kevlar weight packs!

Btw, gotta correct something I mentioned b4. The SAR-21 Picatinny still has the kevlar plate. Its the Sar-21 carbine (an even more compact version) that has the kevlar plate removed IIRC. It was on display at AA2006.

Theres really nothing WRONG with the SAR-21. Its a lil heavier over the M-16, thats all. Maybe we oughta accidentally sell a few of them to some Somalian Militia... and we'll really see if its combat effectiveness in the hands of some druggy peasant.

Blockhead SG

Originally posted by moca:

And if chamber explosions are INDEED happening with such frequencies with the SAR-21, NO WONDER THE INDIANS DIDN'T CONSIDER THE SAR-21.[/b]

Not sure if anybody has pointed this out, but from what I know, chamber explosions (which is quite rare to begin with) is usually due to faulty ammo, not the rifle... that is, unless somebody has done something seriously silly, like stuff something tightly into the firing chamber or barrel, of course...

MobyDog SG

Oh yeah.. the open house.. my sprawny 1.6m girlfriend shot the SAR-21 too.

Don't know the score though.. but she says it's like a toy.. It's fun.. but too loud.

tek_koh SG

yeah.. me shot 5/5 using the SAR21 , but i have to crank my neck a little, i think my neck is too long

beavan SG

now that's very good, it shows that the weapon can still function after so many rounds have been continuously fired from it.

good to know

moca SG

Actually, most civilians can fire the M-16 with absolutely no problems either.

In fact, the M-16 is less loud cos the chamber is further away, and so is the muzzle blast.

The M-16 can also fire many rounds without jamming. I have spent entire days and nights of range or live firing without cleaning my weapon and no IA occurred. ANd then, with some older weapons, IA occurs no matter how many times you clean the weapon.

You must take into account that a lot of the M-16 we used were beat-up, decades old training weapons. Whereas the SAR-21s are all less than 10 years old.

Not to spark off a M-16 vs SAR-21 debate once more, but just to point out that most rifles, including the M-16, can do all this and more.

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