Singapore's procurement blunders

last SG · 2007-02-11T22:04:33+00:00

micro cracks? by visual? well to determine if it really is a crack on the airframe, you would need to do NDI.

seancannot SG

I think Apache is a blunder look at the us apache being shot down in iraq by small arm fire ..

sgf SG

Nothing is indestructable. I wouldn't be worried if an Apache got downed by a barrage of small arms fire. I'd be worried if a farmer shot it down with a pea shooter. Rolling Eyes

What makes you think other attack copters would've fared better? If placed in the same circumstances, I'm pretty sure the French Eurocopter Tiger, South African Rooviak or even the Russian Mi-28 or KA-50 would've gone down too.

Bottomline, its a joke to say something is lousy 'cos it got destroyed. Only someone used to playing CS in God mode would think there is something which is totally indestructable. Rolling Eyes

The American M1A2 Abrams & Israeli Merkeva are amongst the best MBTs out there. But both have been destroyed (partially or otherwise) before. Does that mean they suck?

storm_freaky13 SG

I think the Apaches are one of the greatest purchases ever done by MINDEF. It gives the SAF a very powerful sword.

Getting shot down or destroyed doesnt mean it sucks. Hell i cant think of a thing that cannot be destroyed so does that mean that eveerything sucks?

In my opinion, although there are good off the shelve buys for the small arms, I still see a need for us to create our own. Simply because not everything off the shelf is suitable for us. When we make our own, we can customise everything that suits our needs. The SAR-21 is in fact a very user friendly and maintenance friendly firearm. (Just becareful of the sights) no doubt i love the G36 for its reliability from a famed manufacturer and looks great as well. But from what ive heard its expensive and may not suit us.

By developing our own weapons, we can hone our R&D and engineering skills. Who knows one day, STK will be famed for building small arms just like HK? maybe even be well known to build Tanks? I am pretty sure HK, COLT or any well known arms manufacturer was producing fantastic weapons straight off when it first started. Give STK a chance, although there were misses the Ultimax was surely a hit. SAR-21 too to me is a hit because its just so easy to operate and use. with its features and specifications, i think its fantastic in urban ops for normal grunts.

LazerLordz SG

Correct, the Ultimax Mk4 is under trials right now to replace the M249 as the Marine Corps SAW weapon.

SpecOps87 SG

Just curious, will the USMC if they procure the Ultimax Mk4, be using the drum mags or using the box mags?

SpecOps87 SG

I suppose one of the blunders is the issue of the apparently farked up D&G waterbag bladders. In one of my topics someone posted that the friggin bags just gets ripped open and D&G blames the recruits for not knowing how to use them.

RussianPower SG

talking about procurement blunders...

there's this particular detachment that operates this particular equipment that's useless in local terrain.

but they always get called back for reservist...

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Ironically the early versions of the waterbag seemed to work better. I never had any issues with my own older D&G sets, but it seems that the current batchs seem to be bursting rather well in BMTC.

But yes, it could be possible that the recruits are filling up the waterbag to the absolute max... which is bad in any waterbag cos if you put the weight of your fieldpack on it... it'll all be game over pretty soon.

storywolf SG

This is the classic example of what so call military idiots thinks !!!

Just be cause a few Apache have been show down - then idiots go and label them as blunders !!!

So what a few Apache been down by small arms ? When it took out more tanks, buildings and troops !!! Do not know why people just focus on the stupid narrow point. If i give you a AK-47 with 10 magzine, and you go one to one with a apache, you think who will win ? If you win , than I would say it is is a blunder ..... !!!!

So if a soldier arm with M16 is shot , then it is blunder ? A tank destoryed is a blunder ? A heli shot down is a blunder ? Frankly there is not a weapon that is indestructable thus like that all weapons are blunders ?

Frankly anything which can shoot and kill is a successful weapon, only all depend on the user who use it and how they use it.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

AFAIK, the Apache is still among the most, if not the most survivable platforms in its role.

One needs to note that the AH-64s that had been supposedly downed by "small arms" fire were submitted to the fire of hundreds, if not thousands of rounds... would any other attack chopper in the world make it back if faced with the same thing (at hand I can only think of a few)? Would you like to be in a UH-1H trying to do the same job?

The reason why they have been taking losses is because they have been exposed to the most amount of fire among all the rotary wing aircraft in Iraq, but if you look at the ratio of losses to fire taken it's immediately apparent you want to be in an Apache when the stuff hits the fan.

And not to mention realistically speaking is the "small arms" here really AK-47s? Not unless you want to believe the insurgent propangada which is prehaps even more laughable then the yankie version (at least the yanks make an attempt to make their propangada sound possible).

Most of the damage dealt to the Apache likely came from higher caliber weapons like heavy machine guns, MANPADs and the like, for the bird itself is quite tolerant of AK 7.62mm rounds. Unless it was hit in a vital area (which could happen if you put enough rounds into the air), thinking that your AK would do good against the Apache is not only wishful thinking... it's quite possibly suicide.

Shotgun SG

The AH-64 that got shot down weren't exactly in their dominating environment when they got shot down.

The Apaches were designed as Tank-Killers. They hunt TANKS and other vehicles in battlefields. Not surveying/chasing areas in urban areas where insurgents like to hang out. Unfortunately, its the only attack helicopter that is capable of doing that. We'd have more cobras shot down if they wanted to use those instead.

ldffollower76 SG

[quote]Originally posted by SpecOps87:
I suppose one of the blunders is the issue of the apparently farked up D&G waterbag bladders. In one of my topics someone posted that the friggin bags just gets ripped open and D&G blames the recruits for not knowing how to use them.[/quot

Couldn't agreee more man!! Those D&G products sucks to the core!! They tried to "copy"designs from black hawk but they fail totally. Instaed i thought that those from Force 21 were much better than those from D&G. PArdon me but i seriously think that D&G products afre only good for the boy scouts and NCC alike. Military usage, i would rather stick to either blackhawk or products from Force 21.

I own a few piece of BH and F21 gears and till today, they are still faithfully serving me well. People may say that i never get to use them but the point here is if they can withstand the rigours of me a techie crawling in and out underneath vehicles, digging shell scrapes, etc etc. I think they are good. For D&G products, i just strap it onto my webbing for a test fit and the stiches gave way!! Shocked . Also, if you were to ask combatants to chose between D&G and Force21 rpoducts, i believe with all my heart that they and surely go for FORCE21.
By the way, are you guys aware that D&G is own by a couple of malaysians but F21 is own by ex NAVY regulars?

Always Support Local!!!!!

Cheers!!

LazerLordz SG

The Longbows are used in Iraq as medium range observation and targeting/hunter-killer platforms. They loiter and orbit around city blocks, and when they have to pop down for a confirmation, that’s when they are more prone to attacks because no matter how effective the millimeter-wave radar is, clutter is always a smokescreen that will reduce the effective nature of the avionics in detecting ALL the potential threats.

glock SG

Giving one's industries a boost in the arm to the exclusion of others is sometimes called protectionism. Economically, it makes no sense for Spore to design & build its own weapons - there is simply is no economies of scale.

The only reason to design your own weapons is to retain a knowledge base & this is a very expensive exercise.

If you look at the weapons developed locally, how much do you think comes from overseas technical expertise ? A lot I wud think . If you look at Bionix for instance, most of the critical and high value systems are purchased off the shelve. If one adds up the costs of the Bushmaster, firecontrol system, engine, tracks , suspension, armor etc they probably account for more than 80 % ( if not more ) of the value of the Bionix. Also, one must add the infrastructure to design & build these systems - they also cost lots of money.

M16s are built by the million and AK47s by the scores of millions. How many SAR21s can we build for the SAF ? 0.1 million ? Economies of scale say it all - these locally developed systems cannot be had on the cheap !

glock SG

No system is infallible.

Introduce a new weapon system & very soon there will be a weapon or tactic to counter it.

A rethink in tactics for the use of AH 64 in Iraq is probably in the cards. It is not only hardware that one shud look at.

Another " invincible " weapon is the Merkava. If the enemy is smart enough or has the right counter weapon, any " invincible " weapon becomes toast.

SingaporeTyrannosaur SG

Seeing one side of the coin again?

So are you implying that we are far better off dropping off all of our R&D and sinking all the cash into getting off the shelf systems like other countries in the region?

Truth is I don't think that's the way to go for Singapore... one of the key aspects to our survival and credibility comes not simply from having the cash to spend on stuff, but having the stuff that money cannot immediately buy. The simple math of the whole thing is that no matter how much cash we sink into off-the-shelf systems that anybody can buy all it takes is for somebody to outspend us... worse if they have more resources in land and manpower and are willing to spend on buildup. We can't really sustain a force parity simply by relying on buying our stuff off the shelf.

A lot of the technology that we need to maintain a proper force multiplier over potential opponents are simply not obtainable via main market systems. Looking at it this way, nations like South Africa, South Korean and even Japan see it fit to create their own weapons systems (Japan and SK have their own MBTs and are planning for the next generation of systems) when by many measures the defence industry is not really their main method of generating GDP... are they being silly given they could just buy off-the-shelf?

Let's not even forget about Israel... should they have spent all the money they blew on developing the Merky, Tavor and all those other local systems that have yet to find any place in the international market on off-the-shelf systems?

You are grossly underestimating the value of R&D. This is not to mention that you pointed out, but failed to notice the significance of the fact that we often repurpose other people's R&D for our own ends... so it is as much a modifying foreign technology to fit our needs as it is a learning experience.

It would be odd if we decided on a whim to design a new 25mm cannon for the Bionix when we already had proper systems to work with. But it's another thing to say that it's better altogether to just use the Bradley... which was considered, but finally rejected.

If you haven't noticed, the SAF does mixes and matches the way we get our weapons. Those that we can buy we buy, if we can modify it we modify. If we really need a capability that we cannot buy, we are willing to spend to create it ourselves. Is the spending justified? I certainly think so.

And what's with your nonsenscial point about millions of M16s and AKs manufactured worldwide versus what a small red dot can churn out? Do you not realize that since the SAF was young our mainstay infantry weapon, the M16 has but been manufactured right here in Singapore for the fact that we simply could NOT GET ENOUGH from off the shelf back then?

For the record, given we have already been manufacturing our M16S1s locally and it has always been the way we have kept our armies supplied with arms... so what's with your nonsense with not being able to make enough weapons with the switch to SAR-21? The infrastructure to manufacture arms had always been present since the industralization of our nation, you make it seem as if we just recently built it up from scratch.

The per unit cost of the SAR-21 factoring all the development costs and what have you not will certainly be cheaper in the long run then if we were getting some foreign off-the-shelf system. That bit is clear enough from the moment the whole project was started... which was the point of it to begin with.

I'm not sure what you are trying to do except to try to draw some argument from thin air.

And what makes you think there are only 100,000 SAR-21s in the SAF?

Given this fact, it is obvious that locally manufacturing some weapons systems is justified in the economic sense. Is this really protectionism? Or a just case of locallymademustsuckitis?

I think for all their blunders our government is that not silly... they would not waste years and billions on creating locally made weapons just for the fun of it. Not that all our procurement efforts are perfect... but to say that R&D is unneeded and to rely on whatever some other company in some other country with very different defence needs happens to think up of seems to be national suicide to me.

storywolf SG

glock, how well do you know about singapore arm industry ? Can see you are a total zero on it. Singapore may be small in size, but it is sizable player in the arms market. You keep assuming Singapore, keeping its product and expertize in Singapore only, but you did not see the oversea sales !!! Thus me it is huge.

You bring up the bionix, well since nothing is suitable we manufacture it by combining the best of all part, so what wrong with that ? We learn from all the best equipment and intergrate them. Well if over 200 bionix is not economic of scale enough for you ? You think people sell you a arm vehicle so cheaply without including development cost, and all other cost ? dream on.

SAR-21 is sold to singapore army ? You can be assure that it is more then 0.1 million in singapore alone !!! Oversea sales, did you aware that sar-21 is been sold oversea also ? Just because you not oversea to buy it, does not mean there is no sales. SAR-80 and SR-88 and ultimax 100 have all had very good sales !!! Just because you do not know about it.

Fairyland SG

R&D on small arms, ammo, pgms, armour plate/nanotech technology, NCW/BMS stuffs makes alot of sense to me.

But APCs and other platforms are just nothing more than specialised trucks. One can get Marders or Centurions and lots of surplus to modify or upgrade.

Larger weapons(like howitzers) actually their effectiveness dictated by the munitions (plus the NCW) that come out of it rather than the barrel and running gear it posses.

Suitability of one hardware to our requirements actually is decided by the mindsets of the evaluators. I don't think there's such a think as unsuitable hardware but rather the inflexibility of those that will operate them.

My 2 cents.

LazerLordz SG

I think the aim of local arms industries is to ensure a viable production line that can at least sustain us in a wartime situation where we may not get resupply of parts from our commercial partners from abroad.

It's called Plan B, and one that has been moderately successful. Think Spartan and the US Navy. Increasingly, we have a lot of bilateral R&D that have been moved on to producing stuff that is used in actual combat by major powers.

If you have indigenous capability, you can customise COTS equipment. If not, you are at the mercy of the source codes provider.

audiovideo SG

with A380 delay and possible A350 delay, sometime wonder if sg choose eurofoghter maybe risk of delay when those euro countries bey-song one another over whatever. luckily sg chose F15sg Very Happy

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