SG terrain suitable for MBT?

last SG · 2006-09-15T23:14:55+00:00

OK Tempest's replacement is revealled....now lets wait for SM1's real replacement to be announced...

moca SG

Inevitably, in a discussion about tanks in Singapore, someone would mention that Singapore (and Malaysian) terrain is NOT suitable for MBT.

Some of the reasons cited is mud, jungle, plantations, bridges etc.

The most absurd argument is mud in SG, as the tank WAS INVENTED TO HANDLE MUD. As if our mud is different from their mud.

Personally, I think this is all rubbish as we have had the Centurion MBT for the last 30 years.

But can someone from the armour corps please determine if our terrain is indeed unsuitable for MBT? Did they tell you at armour school that SG is not suitable for MBT?

To give everyone a better idea for discussion here are the specs for both Centurion and AMX-13.

Centurion specs:
Length: 8.29 m
Width: 3.39 m
Height: 2.94 m
Weight: 56,000 kg

AMX-13 specs:
Length: 6.36 m (with gun forwards)
Width: 2.51 m
Height: 2.3 m
Weight: 15,000 kg (combat weight)

spartan6 SG

If we have 2 fight on our ground then liao lo

storywolf SG

Well there is no right or wrong answer to that . Because the whole singapore or malaysia terrain is different at different parts and season.

Look at singapore and malaysia, if urban area, there is away roads, thus MBT is alway suitable. But if you go into the jungle where unpave road, that does not mean the MBT cannot handle it.

But sometime if raining season + soft ground, that may be a problem to MBT.

The answer is MBT is alway suitable. But just when, where and how you deploy it , that make it suitable or not . But sometime having a big gun does help when you need it.

|-|05| SG

Ya loh if any MBT is use in Singapore then we're screwed ....wad does it matter if we can use it.

equlus84 SG

I was thinking of this question.......... Since MBT can't than the soft muddy terrains of ASEAN nations then could getting a MBT that tips the 40ton scale do the trick? Is this wad Malaysia is doing or thinking?

Since getting a MBT of China or Russian made is usually lighter than that of the European counterparts, could they score better in mobility in this region. For example, China's T62 light tank and the T63A amphibious tank.
The T62 is a scald down version of the T55, at 33tons but the weight still hangs above the SAF 30tons magical number. But lets say we do face opforce with this type of diluted MBT we would face some problems.
No doubt the T62 being heavier, it has a bigger calibre gun 105mm and has definitely better armour protection that the "tankette" scorpion, AMX-13. Does this mean we may lose out?

Wad are ur views?

|-|05| SG

i think alot of it depends on the size of the tracks.If the tracks are wide enuf then soft mud would be no problem.case in point the T34's in russia during the spring thaw.The mud there i dare say is much worse.

EXCO SG

After following the discussion about MBTs in our context, I have something on my mind to express. I feel that the direction at which the discussions are going is pretty one-sided. Its always about MBTs, and not an armoured fighting group as a whole. For Singapore, how will MBTs in the orbat affect the overall outcome of a battle? Maybe that is a better way of looking at the “usefulness” of MBTs in the region.

tankee1981 SG

The tropical terrain in the SEA is indeed not as ideal for tank warfare as comapred to open plains and deserts but don't worry we have our ways to avoid and counter this muddy problem. Very Happy

moca SG

You're right, this discussion is one-sided. This is because we are not here to discuss tactics or strategy. If I'm not wrong, we are already operating Amroured Battle Groups, with our vast variety of different types of combat vehicles.

But the only thing that raises the most question is the MBT.

IMO the fighting capabilities of the MBT vs Light Tanks does not require any discussion. MBT is better, period. No light tank can hide or outrun a RPG. Our AMX-13 can be easily defeated by 25mm cannon or even a .5 firing SLAP rounds.

On the other hand, an MBT might still survive a RPG hit.

Secondly, some people are still doubtful as to whether we have an MBT. I'm in no doubt we in the form of the Centurion.

And thirdly, which is what this thread is about, is the frequently heard but completely unfounded argument that out terrain is not suitable for MBTs.

I am just wondering if this is what SAF armour school teaches? Or if this is just one of those rumours that seems to find favour with a lot of people.

moca SG

Not suitable for "tank warfare" in which context? Desert Storm, Yom Kippur War, WW2 Eastern Front etc?

But isn't that a rather narrow view of tank warfare especially from a tankee, with all due respects? Mr. Green

Most tank battles are not of the grandiose scale open plains and desert type.

Most tank battles are not even written down in history as tank battles cos they were fought in support of infantry. They take place in villages, towns, forest, jungles, cities all over the world from WW1 to present.

Nearly all Indochinese countries like Thailand, Burma, Cambodia and Vietnam field MBTs.

And we all know these countries have mud and jungle just like us.

moca SG

the thing is this:

SAF believes MBT are suitable for our terrain.

If operating 70 Centurion since the 1970's is not enough to substantiate the point, then what is?

papabear20046 SG

Tinking of having MBTs? Important question to ask yourself: terrain suitable??????? Most Most Important question is........whether your enemies terrain suitable for MBTs to operate or not.........YOUR MBTs to operate Twisted Evil Think you driving your brand new 69 TON M1A2 Abrams 62 TON Leopard 2A6 62 TON Challenger2 65 TON Merkava Mk4 crossing a bridge n suddenly.........it breaks N send u falling to your death Or in some areas u cracking up the roads(making it unuseable for the rest of the vehicles) n u can't use flyovers n tunnels(cos u too big/tall).....Then u will be thinking IF ONLY I HAVE MY LIGHT TANK RIGHT NOW Crying or Very sad But then LIGHT TANK armour can't make it lor.....So best to have a LIGHTER WEIGHT N SMALLLER SIZE MBT so that u can use almost anywhere....Cos they can support your MBTs...Almost like WW2 Jap....Mud can't operate? Wat BULL !!!!! Tanks r built for mud......If u say MBT can't swim fair enough....Jungle can...If u look at russian ACE asst u will know....Don't tink so BRITISH Laughing ...Look at viet war u will understand

N if one day we use MBTs in Singapore terrain then it will be over for us.....We will die die use in other ppl terrain first...........

moca SG

Originally posted by papabear20046:
Tinking of having MBTs? Important question to ask yourself: terrain suitable??????? [b]Most Most Important question is........whether your enemies terrain suitable for MBTs to operate or not.........YOUR MBTs to operate Twisted Evil Think you driving your brand new 69 TON M1A2 Abrams 62 TON Leopard 2A6 62 TON Challenger2 65 TON Merkava Mk4 crossing a bridge n suddenly.........it breaks N send u falling to your death Or in some areas u cracking up the roads(making it unuseable for the rest of the vehicles) n u can't use flyovers n tunnels(cos u too big/tall).....Then u will be thinking IF ONLY I HAVE MY LIGHT TANK RIGHT NOW Crying or Very sad But then LIGHT TANK armour can't make it lor.....So best to have a LIGHTER WEIGHT N SMALLLER SIZE MBT so that u can use almost anywhere....Cos they can support your MBTs...Almost like WW2 Jap....Mud can't operate? Wat BULL !!!!! Tanks r built for mud......If u say MBT can't swim fair enough....Jungle can...If u look at russian ACE asst u will know....Don't tink so BRITISH Laughing ...Look at viet war u will understand

N if one day we use MBTs in Singapore terrain then it will be over for us.....We will die die use in other ppl terrain first...........
[/b]

But what's your point, after so much rambling?

Do you have evidence that all bridges in US, Europe and Middle East are unbreakable?

Do you have evidence that all roads won't "crack up" in US, Europe and Middle East?

Do you have evidence that all flyovers and tunnels in US, Europe and Middle East can accommodate MBT?

Have a small and light MBT?

Sure. But you're mistaken in thinking that putting a big gun on a light chassis will make it an MBT. You also have to take into consideration the low level of armour protection offered by a small/light chassis. MBT are heavy not because of the main gun, but because of the armour protection.

The IDF operate Centurions without the main gun and it still weighs 50 tons.

If you want small, light and fast with a big gun, there are plenty of wheeled options like the Stryker MGS.

sgf SG

Someone once mentioned replacing all the SM1 with MBTs. That's not gonna work me thinks. You'll need a combination of armoured vehicles. MBTs, light tanks, IFVs armed with ATGM & perhaps even some wheeled vehicles like the Piranha. Coupled with armoured infantry packing decent ATGM power & of course our Apaches. A team effort basically.

Even having 500 state of the art M1A2 MBTs ain't gonna be of much use if we just operate them & nothing else.

papabear20046 SG

Do you have evidence that all flyovers and tunnels in US, Europe and Middle East can accommodate MBT?

Sure kana RPG Neutral

touchstone_2000 SG

What is the ground pressure exerted by each tank? That will settle any discussion.

Shotgun SG

I was not in armor, but my 2 cts is that: NOT the entire SG or Malaysian peninsular is Good for MBTs. But its not as bad as some people make them out to be.

Its not a question of, can MBTs fight here, or can MBTs fight there. Its whether the MBT can get there. Roadways and highways are important, since that is where u can move ANY vehicle at its fastest movement speed. Not to mention fuel economy.

But what if where the MBT is needed is somewhere that u need to go OFF road, into very soft ground when it just rained for the past 2 days? And what if the objective is full of tight terrain and lots of hills or sudden rise and drops? Do u really really need and MBT there?

IMO, its about having the right tool for the right job at the right place.

papabear20046 SG

M1A2 Abrams,Leopard 2A6,Challenger2,Merkava Mk4. All these r among the best MBTs out there today on the market. But the question is........R THEY FOR US? Do u want to cross that bridge whenever u 1 or do u want to detour n go the long way while your guys waited for your fire support? Or wait for ACE to help u? I mean 69 ton worth of firepower n protection is good to have. But is it suitable for us? If u read GW2 U.S report u find that they found out M1A1 too heavy to cross most of the bridges....N note that not all roads r built for "heavy" traffic of this kind. I'm merely pointing out the facts on the weight issue......

Lighter n "smaller" MBT might be K1A1(120mm main gun)

Length (including main armament):9.67m
Length (hull):7.48m
Width:3.60m
Height:2.25m
Combat weight:54.5 ton
Max:65km/h

Ground pressure:0.87kg/cm²

K1A1 features a primary armament of double the penetration power. The tank's 120mm gun can penetrate up to 600 mm of armour while the old model's 105mm gun could only penetrate up to 300 mm. The effective firing range also has increased to 2 km from the previous 1.2 km. Demonstrated a first round hit probability of greater than 90% when firing on the move at a moving target.

Manoeuvrability of the tank is optimised for varied geographical features which include mountainous terrain, jungle, paddy fields n swamp.

Or Leclerc(120mm main gun)

Length (including main armament):9.9m
Length (hull):6.9 metres
Width:3.7 metres
Height:2.5 metres
Combat weight:56.5 tonnes
Max:70km/h

Ground pressure: 0.9kg/cm²

It's gun fires APFSD n HEAT rounds with a firing rate of 12 rpm. The tank has an auto loading sys which allows cross-country fire-on-the-move against mobile targets.

But we must think if ppl would sell Chobham armour tanks/tech to us or not? If not we might need to make tanks that suits our needs. Or buy.

beavan SG

why all the discussion on MBTs?

moca SG

Why is fuel economy more important than firepower or survivability?

This is irrelevant for if the terrain is as bad as you mentioned, it will be problem for ALL motorised traffic expecially wheeled vehicles. In fact, the MBT will be the one still mobile when the terrain becaomes too soft for all other vehicles. I don't know where you got the idea of MBT being stuck in the mud when other vehicles are unaffected. The opposite of this scenario is true.

MUD. THAT'S WHY TANKS WERE INVENTED.