1 Merkava per day, what a dosage !!!

last SG · 2006-08-14T22:29:19+00:00

Just having ATGMs and anti ship missiles are not considered high tech. SAF is going into this 3G thinge where focus is on network centric warfare (ie, Schola...

moca SG

Anti-Tank Weapons Inflict Heavy Losses on Israeli Army
Reuters
Fri, 11 Aug 2006, 02:10

Powerful anti-tank missiles manufactured by Russia and Iran are being used with deadly effectiveness by Hizbollah against the Israeli army in southern Lebanon, military sources say.

A large proportion of the 68 Israeli soldiers who have died in south Lebanon since the start of the offensive a month ago were killed by such missiles.

Top-selling daily Yediot Aharonot reported Aug. 10 that out of 25 anti-tank missiles fired, about one-quarter of them pierced the armor of targeted tanks and caused heavy losses.

The terrorists know where the weak spots are, and we are being badly hit, the newspaper quotes a senior official as saying.

The attacks are a blow to the pride of Israels army. Merkava III and IV tanks are considered among the most powerful in the world and have a reputation for extremely resistant armor and protective systems.

Merkavas boast 1,200 horsepower and are equipped with state-of-the-art electronic systems that should make them some of the safest and most mobile tanks in the world.

But Israels tanks, crucial for any ground operation in southern Lebanon, have proved vulnerable to the attacks of Hizbollah and ill-adapted to the hilly and heavily wooded terrain.

Israeli military officials have also admitted surprise at the level of resistance they are meeting from Hizbollah fighters, who are well-trained and have been firing at tanks from very close range.

The bulk of the Shiite militias anti-weapons are Russian-made models, although some were manufactured in Iran, said expert Yiftah Shapir from the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies.

The most efficient missiles are the Metis-M and the Kornet manufactured by Russia and delivered to Syria in the nineties, he told AFP.

They are very lethal because they have been designed to penetrate active armor on modern tanks such as those the Israelis were the first to introduce in the early eighties, Shapir said.

Hizbollah also has the latest Sagger missile, a Russian weapon manufactured in Iran, as well as the Russian Spigot, the expert said.
These missiles have the ability to pierce armor as thick as one meter (39 inches) and have a range of 1.5 to five kilometers (one to three miles).
The Israeli army knew that Hizbollah had a large arsenal of missiles, but maybe they didnt know they had the Metis-M and the Kornet, Shapir added.

Yediot Aharonot quoted a senior military official as saying the armys lack of preparedness for the threat of anti-tank missiles is a bigger failure than that which preceded the Yom Kippur War.

The Israeli army has dramatically underestimated Egypts ground forces ahead of the 1973 Arab-Israeli conflict.

The problem isnt technical, said Shapir. They will always end up finding the answer to the new generation of missiles just like they did in the past.

The most important thing is that the Israeli army finally understand that they are not up against a gang of terrorists but a real army. http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/Anti-Tank_Weapons_Inflict_Heavy_Losses_on_Israeli_Army.php

Arthas79 SG

What kind of tanks were hit? There are many variants of Merkavas. There are also Sabras. The Israelis do not have the money to ‘up-armour’ every single Merkava; from the old Merkava 1 onwards. If thier intention was to smash the Hizbollah para-military units, I reckon they would reserve the majority of thier better tanks for a possible wider conflict with, say, Syria or even Iran…they have thousands for heaven`s sake. There are some meant to be cannon fodder anyhow.

dork3d SG

Heard that there’s an improved version of RPG rockets with armour-piercing delayed fuse (APDF) capabilities which can explode after piercing through armoured surfaces and delayed the explosive fuse rather than explode upon impact…

tripwire SG

the MERKAVA needs a TUSK upgrade, if they are intended to be use in FIBUA.

and seriously.... someone needs to tell the isrealis.. its stupid to wear military uniform inside an enemy town...

their army camo would not camo them in a hostile city... it makes them stand out as targets.

they should wear hizbollah uniform (civies), put on some islamic worded headscarf and learn to speak arabic with a lebanese accent. Twisted Evil and carry AK-47 and RPGs.

remember how they beat the egyptians during the 1973 war? an entire isreali division, wearing egyptian uniform, operating egytian equipment and move about like they own egypt. Mr. Green

moca SG

Huh???!!!

You are joking, right?

Do you have a link or any source that I can read about this?

ChineseJunk SG

Originally posted by tripwire:

remember how they beat the egyptians during the 1973 war? an entire isreali division, wearing egyptian uniform, operating egytian equipment and move about like they own egypt. Mr. Green

See for example David Eshel, "Chariots of the Desert: The Story of the Israeli Armoured Corps", Brassey's Defence Publishers 1989, pp. 90-93.

This account was in September 1969 and was called Operation Raviv, led by Colonel "Pinko" Harel.

Joe Black SG

How do you then prevent blue on blue scenarios?

[email protected] SG

how tankees many have died for 1 captured tankee? hmmmm

1 lost is a tragedy. I guess thats how they're dealing with it. Try to get more killed so it becomes a statistic.

coolant SG

1st, u have to consider the Iraqi war is much large in scale than the Israel Vs Hez show, therere 300K US troops took part in Vs Israels 30K, and even so, the absolute US casualties number is not as high as that of Israel, If u put this figure in a relative rating, even much lower. And you also have to take into account many of those died US soldiers are caused by friendly fire. When is ankees suffering the most? During the occupation time, not in the battle.

2nd, Iraqi army was better equipped, not lack of AT3 saggers or powerful RPGs, not mention they are regulars, yet they achieve far mor less than the guerillas. There were far less M1 tanks being destroyed in the battle even though much more M1A1/A2 took part in the battles than the Merkavas.

Some serious flaw of IDF tactics worth to explore IMO.

Fatum SG

methinks the terrain played a big part, iraq was relatively flat compared to lebanon, that country is hilly and pretty wooded in some parts (the lebaonese flag even has a ceder tree on it .... ) ... as the soviet found out the hard way in afghanistan ... tanks and hilly terrain are not a good combi ... cos you're presenting lots of opportunities for ambush on some of the weakest spots of any tanks, the turret top and the back ..... and I guess that's what's happening .... the merkavas are being ambushed with anti-tank missiles and advanced RPGs from high ground at short ranges, if the Israelis were fighting on the eastern deserts, against a conventional army (plus less civilians caught in the mix), I think the outcome would have been quite different, cos Israel's full combat power could be bought to bear ...

Gun SG

LOL. What u saying is in war, anything goes. Let's play dirty by dressing up as civil or enemies's uniform and even as another gender !
Nazi germans did it, Americans GI did it, Vietcon did it. There were even reports of Hizbollah fighters dressed as IDF reservist.

Hell with Geneva convention !
As what Sun Zu said, bland with the surroundings.

touchstone_2000 SG

Anybody got evidence that the newer ATGMs are doing their good work?

Me thinks is the usual, lead them into a valley full of landmines trick. That is what is Hamas is doing. Build a mother of all land mine. Run a command wire and wait for the tank to roll up.

Wearing civvies will:

1. Exclude them from Geneva Conventions
2. Depreciate whatever moral standing they have left.
3. Blue on Blue.
4. Allow a suicide bomber to get through.

Shotgun SG

Wearing military urban camouflage is alrite. But wearing civies is a strict no-no. As I mentioned b4, it ENDANGERS the civilians around you. Actual civilians get shot when combatants in Civies hide around and shoot? What kinda immoral, gutless jellyfish of soldier is that? Oh yeah…. Hezbollah..

84mmrr SG

Michael Puttre wrote an interesting article which I believe is applicable to current conflict:

War is all about patterns. Once you have identified the enemy's patterns, and understand their cause and effect, you own him. This is why intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance (ISR) activities are so vital. They provide the key to understanding the enemy's patterns. This is how you apply strength against relative weakness, rather than pitting strength against strength.

Duke of Wellington famously reported after the Battle of Waterloo: "They came on in the same old way, and we shot them down in the same old way."

An interesting article from Washington Post on how Hezbollah fought the war. they are very high tech as well.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/13/AR2006081300719.html

papabear20046 SG

Don't tink any RPG or AT3 killed IDF Merkava......Read report saying Hezbollah got some ATGM like Russian AT-13 Metis-M(Tandem Shaped Charge Warhead/Pentration 1,000 or 900mm behind ERA) not fire n forget but wire guided.........So infantry is still key to tank n infantry op(its all small unit on small unit op not full conv war)........N Hezbollah also has developed improvised shaped charge that can defeat about 8-10 50mm steel plates(more than enough to take out some tracks or target the back of a tank in an ambush) n its light too about 4kg reduced from a 40kg model.......Wonder who they learn it from..... Smile

Shotgun SG

OK ok... I admit. It was me... I taught them dat.... Laughing

MobyDog SG

oh.. yeah... Iraqi insurgent.. Taliban...Vietcon... French Resistance fighter ... etc.

lionnoisy SG

The following from Janes

14 August 2006

1.Hizbullah's intelligence apparatus

The militant Lebanese group Hizbullah has an excellent intelligence capability. Various intelligence sources have told Jane's that the group which sparked a major crisis when it captured two Israeli soldiers on 12 July is deeply committed to developing its intelligence, as it believes that accurate information is an essential prerequisite for both military and political success.

Domestic intelligence

Hizbullah probably has the most effective intelligence apparatus in Lebanon. A Western intelligence official based in Beirut who asked not to be named told Jane's: "Hizbullah intelligence is strongly active in Lebanon and has infiltrated all the Lebanese factions and groups... if these factions decided to challenge them [Hizbullah], it would be a very difficult job." A senior commander with Jordan's General Intelligence Department confirmed the official's claims and added that Hizbullah's intelligence on the various Lebanese factions was better than Israel's.

The group has a 'preventative intelligence' department tasked with enforcing organisational security. This includes ensuring that members rarely use communications technology that can be monitored by Israel. It is rumoured that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah has not used a telephone since he became the group's leader in 1992. Operational units are also said to have been restructured in recent years to increase the compartmentalisation of the organisation and minimise the risk of infiltration.

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© 2006 Jane's Information Group

2.Israel shoots down Hizbullah UAV
09 August 2006

[b]By Alon Ben-David JDW Correspondent
Israeli-Lebanese Border

The Israel Air Force (IAF) intercepted an Iranian-made Ababil unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) launched by the Islamic Resistance - the armed wing of the Lebanese Shi'ite Party of God (Hizbullah) - off the northern Israeli coastline on 7 August.

"The UAV was flying south, towards central Israel," Brigadier General Yohanan Locker, IAF Head of Air Operations, told Jane's.

"I can't say for sure whether it was armed with explosives, but I believe it wasn't."

The Ababil has a maximum operational radius of 150 km, a maximum ceiling of 14,000 ft (4,268 m), the ability to travel at a maximum speed of 300 km/h and is capable of carrying a 45 kg payload. It has a surveillance configuration, carrying a camera and digital communications equipment, but also an attack configuration, carrying a high-explosive warhead that would be delivered by the UAV crashing onto a target.

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© 2006 Jane's Information Group
3.Iran answers Hizbullah call for SAM systems
7 August 2006

By Robin Hughes JDW Deputy Editor
London Additional reporting by Alon Ben-David JDW Staff Reporter
Israeli-Lebanese border

Iran is to supply the Islamic Resistance - the armed wing of the Lebanese Shi'ite Party of God (Hizbullah) - with a quantity of surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems over the coming months, Western diplomatic sources have confirmed to Jane's.

According to the sources, Tehran will supply Hizbullah with Russian-produced SAMs, including the Strela-2/2M (SA-7 'Grail'), Strela-3 (SA-14 'Gremlin') and Igla-1E (SA-16 'Gimlet') man-portable SAM systems.

Iran is also understood to have agreed to deliver its own version of the Chinese QW-1 man-portable low- to very-low-altitude SAM system - the Mithaq-1- developed by the Iranian Defence Ministry's Shahid Kazemi Industrial Complex in Tehran.

Iran launched a mass production line for an advanced variant, the Mithaq-2 - believed to be a short-range passive infra-red SAM - on 6 February. Both variants, believed to be based on Chinese technology, are understood to have been made available for Hizbullah.

However, Jane's understands that Hizbullah already has Iranian-supplied Strela 2s in its inventory

Israel Air Force sources say that their platforms, most notably helicopters, have encountered Strela-2 fire throughout the current conflict. Senior Israel Defence Force sources told Jane's that they believe that Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps personnel, in support of Hizbullah, were involved in these launches.

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Shotgun SG

And what do we have as a result of that? Some (possibly) innoncent men in abu ghraib, being stripped naked by female specialists who enjoys kink. Vietnamese villages that were torched, burnt, and tortured by Americans as they were accused of harboring, supporting vietcong, some accused of being vietcong. And finally, german gestapo arresting french citizens accused of being resistance fighters.

So at the end of the day, what do we have? Definition of Civilians and combatants blurred, resulting in unnecessary civilian suffering in times of war.

MobyDog SG

And the aggressor blaming the insurgents or the innocent victims.. How else do you suggest they fight against a well armed and everwhelming army ??

That's war I suppose.. It's sucks living under occupation and get sandwiched in between..

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