WWII in China 1937-1945

tvdog SG

One thing to remember was that though China suffered horrifically, Japan did not succeed in "officially" occupying China in the way they occupied Singapore and Malaysia.

In other words, China did not capitulate in the way the Brits did in Singapore or like the French (in France) etc.

Though the Japs did install a puppet regime with Puyi etc the Nationalist and Communist forces remained inside China throughout the war. Chiang-Kai Shek and Mao both remained in China throughout the war and did not flee the country. Their respective armies remained viable (but weak) fighting forces throughout the war.

archon1234 SG

Japanese are over-rated simply because the victories that they won in early part of the war is due to:
1) lack of determinations from the Chinese Nationalist armies. The Chinese generals were more inclinded to enter into a peace treaty with Jap just like the Song Dynasty sue for peace with the Northern Liao Kingom / Jin Kingdom.

2) Nationalist armies did not view Jap as their top enemies. They hated the Chinese communists more than the Jap.

3) Nationalist armies are very poorly armed. The tactics were mostly world war I tactics involving Static Defences in trenches, mass infantry charges. Their lack of modern arms eg tanks, anti-tank guns and even rapid fire machine guns had greatly affect the fighting capability against the Jap.

4) Jap early success in Pacific War is due to the pre-occupied european colonial masters were busy fighting for the survival back home against Germany. The British, french and Dutch armed forces were all tied up in Europe. Thus, the British did not even bother to reinforce the Singapore /Malaya as they could only spare 2 battleships to SE Asia. No tanks no top-of-line Spitefire / Hurricane from British India.

5) In the 1939 Manchurian- Mongolian border conflicts, the Jap armed forces elite troops (Guan Dong Jun) was defeated by the Russian Red Armies, even the Jap had threw in their best Zero Fighters to provide air cover.

6) Throughout the occupation of Singapore / Malaya, the Jap Imperial Armies did not managed to root out the Malaya Communist Ant-Jap Armies in the Peninsula. In fact, the resistances were controlling most of the rural area and Jap control was mainly confined to huge urban area.

7) Jap armies did not managed to chase the British out of India, as the British was well established in the India. The British had a large army and a air force in India.

Ponders SG

please don't flame me for this...

but there are many stories "commonly believed" by the masses in Rape of Nanking that 100% of atrocities are done by the Japanese Army.

I did read a more critical article elsewhere about researchers looking into Iris Chiangs books and other chinese history book.

They said that while Japanese Army did do some atrocities, the chinese side (both Nationalist and Communists) had their fair share.

There are areas in China during that time where Japanese army had to protect the civilians from the Chinese.

The Japanese had to evacuate the villagers and Japanese army had to escort them out. Photopgraphs taken during these times were then used to mislead people that japanese army were escorting them to their deaths.

Such cases are where that locality either are pro-japanese or live in such poverty that Japanese are supplying them with food more so during the Civil war time. Why the Chinese are doing harm to them is more for "teaching them a lesson" or making them submit to their ideology.

The communist and nationalist armies also plunder their locals for supplies.

No one i have told believe in me and some actually got disgusted that i was defending the Japanese.

For me, i am defending facts. Well, there is little or little support for what I have read, I also tend to believe the the current belief in Rape of Nanking is also done by overrating the atrocities done.

tvdog SG

It is well recorded that the Nationalists brutally murdered as many Chinese civilians as did the Japs.

The Nationalists murdered many thousands of Communists and Jap sympathisers. The Communists murdered Nationalist and Jap sympathisers.

But for some funny reason, human beings tend to be less forgiving of the atrocities perpetuated by foreigners.

For example, when a Singaporean murders another Singaporean, it is a terrible crime, tough...

But if for example, a Thai construction worker murders a Singaporean, then there'll be a much bigger hooha.

Ponders SG

yup, while it is well recorded,

i am just disturbed by those "historians" who pushes their own agenda than telling facts.

Some people, for the sake of just wanting people believe that Rape of Nanking is horrible...

they will just take any horrible historical picture and say "the jap did that"!!

That's misleading people.

One example is the one that i mentioned in the earlier post.

The late Iris Chang used that Japanese escorting a local to safety picture and said instead that the Japanese soldier is escorting her to her death!!!

tvdog SG

But there are tons of pictures of Japanese troops bayoneting, beheading civilians.

there are also many of Jap troops posing with tied up naked chinese women.

How do you explain that away?

laurence82 SG

Dude, seriously, I think its you who have shown lack of knowledge in Chinese history. At the rate you are going, I would have thought you meant Chinese dont like each other because of geographical/ethnic disparity, like Romans vs Gauls, West Germans vs East Germans. Havent even mixing with Chinese for the past decades in your life tells you two common characteristics about Chinese?

Besides greed for material riches, two things I find consistent in Chinese are pride and wanting of power.

If you have been reading Chinese history, one word that always come out is 'hegemony' or 'tong yi tian xia'. Spring and Autumn Period and the Warring States best exemplify this drive for power and control. They started when feudal lords each decided that they wanted power, leading to break up of the Zhou into hundreds of warring states, and then fought until the last seven before being unified by Qin Shi Huang

Three Kingdoms also reflect this hegemony concept, when Cao Cao seized power from the Lius, and even before the three kingdoms, there were numerous other warlords, including Dong Zhuo, Liu Biao and Yuan Shu.

Heard of 4 centuries of Northern and Southern Dynasties before Sui finally conquer them all? How about Five Dynasties after the Tangs?

Is there significant amount of hatred because of geographical origin? Using talent overcome this, leading to the Zhuge brothers serving three different states. Liu Bei sought to restore the Han Dynasty, not just simply because he dont like Cao Cao's face.

Laughing

tvdog SG

"Dude", spare me your primary school history knowledge. Very Happy

I think you are being an idiot for saying Chinese people are "greedy for riches and power and vain (pride)". And what has this offensive remark gotta to with your lecture about dynasties?

Rolling Eyes

Your decades of being alive in this world hasn't taught you much has it? You mean you haven't encountered greed and vanity outside of the Chinese race?

You should go out more often - "dude".

Ponders SG

Let me clarify, I am not trying to say Japanese did no wrong during the war.

What i am trying to point out is that, it is not only the Japanese who do wrong.

They are some wrongs done by all sides, but rarely mentioned in todays history, especially if the wrongdoing is done by "winning" side.

For example, the Laconia Incident. The Germans rescued survivors after sinking a ship they mistakenly thought it is a ship engaged in military operations. This was a common understanding and practice carried out by both sides until one American plane bombed the very German ship with the rescued survivors.

From then on, the Germans will abandon all survivors as they see no point risking their ships rescuing people. But how did history portray them? They are usually unfairly portrayed as vicious people who will machine gun survivors after sinking their ships. But what's do these people know what the root of it was?

As for Jap troops posing with naked women. Yes, i don't deny that happened.
And that's common history.

But do you know at the same time these Japanese atrocities are happening, the Nationalist and Communists factions are doing it to their OWN race simply because they choose the opposition ideology.

Do you know General Yamashida (if i spell it correctly, the forum will "encrypt" it to take out something vulgar) executes his own officers if they ever harm local population? But history was so mixed up that people believe General Yamashida was in Singapore all along, believing that Yamashida was responsible for all the wrongdoings that ever happened in Singapore.

So i just want to make it clear that I am not righting a wrong or denying history. But I just want to let you all know that whatever history we learn today we have to be cautious before making any judgements. There are many incidents done by both sides of war that are questionable and some are commendable.

archon1234 SG

There waqs no doubt that there were good and decent Jap army officers who really worship and practice the Bushido spirit.

But sad to say, a large majorities of Jap officers in the WW2 were acting more like their gangsters or hooligans... Jap armies is not really disciplined and humane as compared to the British Imperial Army. A large pool of Jap citizens also throught that Jap people were victims until now, but they did not relaise that they are deceived by their own gov until now.

« Previous Page