Is the AR15/M16 Family of Weapons Obsolete?

insouciant SG

Erhhhh... if you not in or have been SAF how come you do zeroing on an M16? If you talking about it at the the ones you play play with at the various exhibitions etc... aiyah, those not the combat issue ones lah.

Give me a M16 with a zeroed scope over the SAR21 anyday. Or even better the Carbine version.

Gasfene SG

how can a weapon where most pple knowhow to use be obsolete? even 40+ yr old know how to fire

Gedanken SG

Why would it be obsolete?

You squeeze the trigger, it goes bang and the round hits generally where it's aimed at (account for your marksmanship skills or lack thereof), and the weapon's perfectly usable.

As for obsolesence, you would have two major factors: function and availability of consumables.

Function: the auto-loader superceded the manually loaded rifle, and the full-auto superceded the auto-loader. Is there any mode of fire for new rifles that the M-16 doesn't have?

Consumables - 5.56 is still standard issue internationally, and I don't think parts for the M-16 family will run out for quite a while yet.

Nope, it's not obsolete.

specfore SG

Yes, forgot about the faulty magazine. That was why during my time when the company went for their marksmanship tests, the OC asked the CQM to draw new magazines. But in war, as a reservist, you will be issued new magazines and new rounds to load. IAs will seldom happen then.

Accuracy of the M16... this was probably the more significant fault compared to other assault rifles. The M16 was built to be able to disassemble easily. The 2 big retaining pins holding the barrel assembly to the trigger assembly and butt are the key components that would dictate whether your zeroing is OK or not. If the pins are fitted loosely, how much zeroing you do will be useless. At long ranges , more than 150m... a small zero error will mean a missed shot.

SpecOps87 SG

Well, I belief the AR15/M16 series weapons are still far away from being scrapped. Why? As its one of the most ergonimacally designed weapon to date and also its lightweight, and easy to train the shooter with.

Meia Gisborn SG

Not quite. Remember, the sights/optics and barrel are attached to the upper receiver and are fixed in relation to each other.

I can conceivably see how a loose-fitting lower receiver and/or buttstock might throw your aim off if it shifts during the critical trigger squeeze, but pressing the entire rifle into your body during the trigger pull should eliminate most if not all of the play between the lower and upper receivers.

Almost all of the ARs I've come across (including the ones that I build) have some amount of play between the lower and upper receivers, due to variances in manufacturing tolerances. It's just a question of how much. Most of the play can be eliminated by installing a rubber shim like the AccuWedge under the rear take-down pin lug in the lower receiver.

The prevalence of AR-platform rifles in Highpower competition in the US points to its tremendous accuracy potential. The most important factor in realizing this potential is the use of correct ammo. Commercial and military-surplus ammo are mass-produced and variances in the manufacturing process (oftentimes accompanied by poor quality control) make them shoot inconsistently. Given the right handloaded ammo, it is not unusual for an AR-type rifle to achieve this kind of accuracy at 200 yards:

That target, by the way, was achieved with this particular AR:

bismarck SG

i like both sar21 and ar15 for varying reasons.
sar21 because it's easier to use, but has this toy feel
ar15 is more straight to the point, raw feel.

Cpt.ZR SG

hahah eh… yopu think only SAF teach combat zeroing meh…. come on la.. I’m in NCC laaa…. CLT now… they wanted to have combat zeroing so i mah go and do la… i do that time is at ngee soon camp some more got one grp of REC beside us… they teach everyone together…. wah lau.. come on la… but firing is fun la…. live one i’m talking abt..

davechng SG

Problem with the M16 is the gas gets blow back into the bolt carrier and in the bolt you get harderend crystallized carbon which is not easy to remove ! and also, with the amount of heat generated in close bolt !IN sustain full auto firing, it would generate more jam!

a piston based M16 like the Heckler and Koch M416

http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/rifles-carbines/hk416.html

would resolve the whole issues ! HK 416 also have several imrpovements like a more solidly built magazine, a new buffer, Since HK is not selling the M416 to civilian here in the US! I am thinking of buying another M16 improvement .

http://www.pof-usa.com/P-416/P-416pricelist.htm

M16 is a good platform and weapon system! It needs some improvemnet to make it better! it will work with what it is, but in the field, a piston based M16 would be much easier to maintain! Just like an AK with the accuracy and erganomics which is 2nd to none!

DaveC!

Shotgun SG

Oh, ur a CLT ah? HMmm do they teach u all IA drills under the NCC courses? What are u supposed to do when rifle jams?

storywolf SG

NCC ? Wow wow .......... big toad !!!

Just because you big toad shoot one range and happen some recurit join you so big toad already right.

But bet they did not tell you the rest of the different type of range or shooting class, that the SAF did not bored to show or let you join right.

insouciant SG

Ha ha ha... my young friend, who do you think the people who taught you the combat zeroing are from? They aren't from the Amnesty International. And who do you think the range belonged too. Rolling Eyes

I was in NCC many years ago, so don't mine me when I say, go thru NS, then we talk. Preferably in a combat vocation in a guards, infantry, commando, armour unit.

Moonstriker SG

Lol.. talk after u enlist. By the time u do, i'm one third thru my 10 yr cycle.
CLT = cadet Lt. Lol.. so wat? Nv been thru combat training..... :p

Weapon Spec me.. :p

Cleared all range. Got a double rifle cross on me upper left arm! Razz
ORD MooDz~ Embarassed

Cpt.ZR SG

ya try teach you to solve the rifle problems.. THey teach many things in there they teach you how to strip this and do this do that… will its good la… in a sense that you will know what to do…. but…. now M16 only avaliable to tekong alrdy so… not really of a use… la

lionnoisy SG

(US Government) seeks to reduce the overall weight of typical
7.62mm caliber ammunition by at least 20% without reducing current performance,reliability, or operating conditions.---FBO notice dated
12/13/2005.Solicitation No. W15QKN-06-R-0251 .

2.The U.S Government National Small Arms Center (NSAC) solicits the members of
the National Small Arms Technology Consortium (NSATC) and Welcomes applications
for new members, for proposals for a requirement in one or more Small Arms,
Eight Technology Areas which were identified to imporve the ability of the
soldier to execute his tasks.
W15QKN-06-R-0250

FedBizOpps notice Date: 2005-11-18

Moonstriker SG

Ye only did simple field stripping which isn't much.
Ummm... M16 tekong only ah? I using still. Nv offered SAR 21 conversion course. I think because my camp is a support maintenance battalion. Rolling Eyes

SpecOps87 SG

Thought that Support & Maintenance units are using the AR-15? My former tutor in Ports Down camp as a technician was telling me that they used the SAR-80/88 even!

Anyway, think that the M16 is really versatile. Compared to the Ak, which is built for ruggedness, the M16 is basically built for precision and light weight. Biggest thing I like about the M16? Uer Ergonomics and also wide range of equipment available for it.

insouciant SG

My fren, you're taking a beating here, I really suggest you wait till you enter the army.

There are still quite a few reservist combat units using the good ole M16 in the SAF. It'll take a while to replace them all. Heck a lot of the current units still use the M16/M203 combination as well.

SpecOps87 SG

Agreed. But given the choice between the M16/M203 or the SAR-21/M203, would pick the M16/M203 combo any day.

mrwonderful SG

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