Singapore's Next Generation Fighter

last SG · 2004-03-08T17:15:05+00:00

Agree that the ILS alone would swing it all to the F-15E. Even politically it maybe a better decision though the benefits would not be as great as South Kore...

Joe Black SG

Originally posted by Viper52:
[b]Radar plays large role in RSAF buy

by Reuben F. Johnson

http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/asian/asian_04/d3_radarp20.html

[snip]

The Singapore competition is really a look into the future in that the AESA radar is now the new cost of admission for a fighter trying to succeed in most export markets. A few years ago, the main question that customers wanted answered was, Can I have an active-homing radar missile (i.e., Raytheons AIM-120 AMRAAM or a European analog). Those sellers who said no were automatically at a disadvantage. Now in addition the new standard inquiry from a prospective customer is going to be, How soon can I have an AESA?
[/b]

If this article is accurrate and representitve of RSAF NGF requirements, then can we start singing and dancing... my wish might just come true... Hello Mica! Scalp, etc....

wd1 SG

thanks for that interesting article!
hmm for a time i thought Rafale was going to use the AMSAR! perhaps another piece of Eurofighter Inc. disinformation.

any idea how many T/R elements the RBE2 AESA will have?
my guess is around 1000.
saw the mockup at AA2004... but didnt manage to pick up any more info.

as a proud singaporean... im no less happy than joe black is!! yeah! this makes us the first in southeast asia to have AESA, and only 2nd in all asia after UAE's f-16blk60s.

Viper52 SG

Hell yeah! I would really really look forward to the day when the Rafale graces Singapore's skies!

eurofighter SG

The F-15K may be equipped with the AN/APG-63(v)1 initially but they can upgrade to an AESA system.

Viper52 SG

Technically its not disinformation, the AMSAR has always been planned for Tranche 3, but with the very existence Tranche 3 being called into question, so does AMSAR itself.

Its more an indictment of how far the Typhoon programme has been derailed by disagreements, lack of budget and slippage in the whole development program.

Joe Black SG

From any angle (except politically), I see the that Rafale makes the most sense to fulfil the NGF role. It is probably the best platform to deal with Super Bugs, and the Sukhoi 27s, 30s and their derivatives which seem to be the favourite aircraft in the region. Rafale will have the edge in both WVR and BVR fight, not to mention, its degree of stealtiness is second to none in the 3 shortlisted aircrafts. F-15 by far has the worst RCS.

Furthermore, having the source code (with open architecture) will play a big part in Singapore being to upgrade the Rafale when needed to. I work in the software industry and knows how important open system architecture is in terms of integrating different type of systems together. Singapore will be able to integrate its current datalink (Israeli origin and not Link 16) into the Rafale rather easily. Furthermore, I also hope that having source code or part of it for the ECM/ESM system means that Singapore will have the ability to update the electronic threat library inside Rafale. Rafale's spectrum ESM system can also act as SIGINT which is in fact a force multiplier.

Technically, I just can't see how F15 is going to better Rafale. Period.

gf0012-aust SG

having been involved with the french on a number of weapons and platforms contracts, from my own personal experience they are the worst to deal with as far as contract obligation, and for making operational promises which are often unfounded.

they've shafted their clients in nearly every major recent project.

you'd want to see proof of capability before signing for anything.

wd1 SG

sure the french did pangseh the israelis back in the 60s with the mirage V, but if they were really all that unreliable we would see many pissed off indians , taiwanese, egyptians, peruvians, UAE folks (all mirage 2000 users); also aussies, swiss and south africans who were or are still major users of french stuff. hell what abt our very own SAF, with our super pumas, ecureuils, fennecs, mistrals, amx13s and 10s, and most recently delta frigates? if we'd been shafted before i dont think we'd have been stupid enough to have bought so much stuff from france.

duotiga83 SG

well, is a good sign that we don't rely so much from the uncle sam.....

Joe Black SG

The Taiwanese said that the French (Dassualt) provided the better support than Lockheed for their Mirages, contrary to your experience. The French were quite to rectify a lot of unexpected issues due to the humidity, like corrosion of certain parts of the plane, air conditioning, etc. French also provided a lot of technical and skill transfers to the Taiwanese support and maintenance crew. I read this from one of the Air Force magazine.

duotiga83 SG

the magazinr is it air forces monthly? last yr they got 1 article on ROC Miage 2000-5

Joe Black SG

I think you could be right about the magazine being the AIr Force Monthly. This is one magazine I read quite frequently, and yes, it was an article about ROC AF's Mirage 2000-5.

The Taiwanese also have high confidence in their Mirages to deal with the Su-30s across the Strait. In fact Mirage 2000-5s are their air-superiority fighters that they rely on rather than their Block 20 Vipers.

Viking1 SG

AMSAR is not a radar but a technology program to further improve the performances of AESA radars using new MMICS and stuff... But AMSAR will not give birth to a new AESA radar before quite many years, unless the Typhoon consortium suddenly decides that CAPTOR no longer does the job but it is unlikely.

So in order to be able to compete with the APG-79 and to some extent to the AESA version of the APG-63 Thales has developped internally and with its own money a version of the RBE2 with an active antenna. And your guess is correct, this RBE2 "AESA" will have about 1,000 T/R elements.

Viking1 SG

It’s a bit OT but I read recently that the Koreans have rejected the active antenna for their F-15K after all. No idea what was the reason. But for the Singapore NGF competition I am sure Boeing is proposing the active antenna.

duotiga83 SG

If my memory is not wrong,they want their F-15 to have the same compatitbility as the USAF F-15C/E so as to have the same maintainance lvl

agsm1 SG

Okay, the Rafale.....

20 aircraft at about ? $ million each, with Mica, Scalp, Exocet, etc.

cutebug SG

I think is around $75 us mil

alert5 SG

Helicopter deliveries delayed but contract for F/A-18s could still go ahead next year

Malaysia has postponed taking delivery of 10 Mil Mi-171 military search-and-rescue helicopters as a result of budgetary constraints although special cases may still be made for key projects to acquire airborne early warning and control (AEW&C) and multirole fighter aircraft.

southpark2000 SG

Hmmm.....with all forumers betting on either of the three, I can't help but think it might just be possible that RSAF might not award a contract afterall....

1. Falling govt revenue - need to curb spending
2. All three, while superior in their own right, are compromises to what might appear in the horizon. F-15 is old, Typhoon and Rafale have problems back home.

A plausible scenario is for RSAF to delay the decomissioning of A4s, increase orders for F-16 (incl. upgrading them) and wait out till the JSF / UCAVs come about.

Southpark
The Dude

kanzer SG

well, despite falling govt revenue, the defence budget has increased so the purchase will go ahead the only question is when.

delaying he decommissioning of the A-4s is not possible..... this old workhorse has little airframe time left, and what if the JSF is delayed, then we have no NGFs nor do we have JSF.... worst still we then have no A-4s..... do need really need to depend of F-16s and F-5s?

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