China, S Korea & Japan Arms expansion

84mmrr SG

I am very interested in these 3 nations' arms program for the next 5 years. Anybody have a good report on their Army programs?

Here's what I found about the 3 nations' Navy programs. In terms of numbers, it's not really an expansion. But in term of quality, I think it's a quantum jump for some of these platforms, eg Japan's heli destoyer & ROK's LX-P which are essentially light aircraft carrier.

ROK seems to have the smallest fleet. Japan wins in term of their impressive surface vessels while China has the largest sub fleet.

Japan
DD (Destroyer)------- 30(2005) 31(2010)
DDH Shirane---------- 2 2005) 2(2010)
DDG(Guided Missile) 9 (2005) 9 (2010)
DDH(Heli destroyer) 0 (2005) 2(2010)
Submarine--------------16(2005) 20(2010)
Total Destroyer = 42 by 2010
Total light carrier = 2 by 2010
Total Submarine = 20 by 2010

China
DD (Destroyer) 24(2005) 23 by 2010
Frigate ---------- 45(2005) 45 by 2010
Submarine------72(2005) 51 by 2010

S Korea
DD (Destroyer) 6(2005) 10 by 2010
Frigate ---------- 9(2005) 9 by 2010
LX-P ------------- 1(2007) 2 by 2010
Submarine------18(2005) 21 by 2010

38 SG

That could be a very big talk! Laughing

To make the talk straightened, lets 1st round out S.korea, because, it got weaker power and S.koreas standing is more neutral, actually, IMO, the F15K is more a threat towards japan than china, Because, Japan dont enjoy the defense depth that China prevails, and also, if China being struck by S.koreas F15K, it can easily knock out the airfield where the F15K launched by using all kinds of missiles including cruise missiles which japan lacks.

So regarding Japan and China, the topic becomes more realistic. On paper, Japan got better Navy because it has more and better surface ships! But think again, lets see what currently happened at the hotspot (again where got oil) in East China Sea. The China side already start drilling oil without any funfair talk ( we only see Japan makes a lot of noise if u turn to the news tonight), only the PLAN vessels are around the scene instead of Japs more high flied 9.10 fleet. How come a country with supposed to be more powerful navy got weaker politic demanding, Dont talk to me because somebody is more civil or polite such kind of story. Because the thinking Japs got better surface navy then is more powerful is wrong.

9.10 fleet yes got better airdefense than any PLAN fleet at the time being, however, Japs SDFs antiship projection is mainly only relied on Harpoon ASM launched from navy vessels and their airborne Harpoon capability is very poor( F15J cant shoot ASM).

The harpoon Anitship missile itself is not so advanced compared to many supersonic/longer range ASM in PLAs inventory. The US Navy use Harpoon very simple. Their ship borne F/A18s just shoot ur fleet use huge amount of Harpoons at the same time to saturate your fleet air defense.

Then lets c what going to happen if the japs 9.10 fleet at the conflict spot really encounters PLA force.

The PLA will use the same tactics that US navy CV groups are applying: many long haul land based Su30/JH-7 heavy fighter bombers will launch standoff missile attacks towards the fleet. At a full load anti-ship config. Its said, a PLA 1st class Naval Aviation Regiment can shoot 400-500 ASM simultaneously. So no matter how strong the 9.10 fleet is, it just cant stand such a saturated attack. In real practice, the PLA most likely will mix their Antiship missile like YJ83/K59A with their anti-radiation missiles like YJ91/ K31 etc. making the punch more deadly.

38 SG

Here's a good report on the PLA Navy: Very long article, sure satisfy you Wink

China beefs up its navy By Giuseppe Anzera

84mmrr SG

Originally posted by 38:

Here's a good report on the PLA Navy: Very long article, sure satisfy you

[b]China beefs up its navy By Giuseppe Anzera
[/b]

Good link, thks. quite a balanced report on PLAN

Sound some info from www.sinodefence.com on PLAAF. China seems to have a confusing purchase program. Anyway, this is a list of advanced jets:
Su-30MKK - 72
Su-30mk2 - 24
J-11 -------- 96
Su-27 ------ 76
J-10 -------- 10?
Total: 278

ROK inventory:
F16 - 180
F15K - 40

Japan has 223 F15J

Again, China has the quantity but not sure if they are better than ROK or Japan

38 SG

PLAAF:

Main strength:

1)Su30Mkk/MK2: Russian made multi-role fighter jets, armed with wide range of russian made MRAAM like R77 and Anti-radiation/anti-ship missiles

2)Su27SK : Russian made , No BVR Active Radar guided AAM

3)J11: Local assembled Su27 kits imported from Russia, No BVR Active Radar guided AAM

4)J11A: Local assembled Su27 with much more Chinese manufactured components, Armed with R77 Active Radar guided MRAAM.

5)J11B: Chinese indigenized Su27 with everything including Powerplant (WS10A turbofan instead of Russian AL31F), Radar and Avionics all made in China. Armed with a range of China and Russian made AA and AG weaponry such as R77 MRAAM and Chinese PL12/SD10 BVR Active Homing AAM, YJ8 series Antiship missile and Russian Kh31 Anti-radiation Missiles. The J11b going to enter service next year.

6)J10A: China developed 3G fighter jets with multi-role functions including AA and AG, armed with Chinese made active homing MRAAM PL12 and Russian style Anti-radiation missile. J10A is already in service and manufacturing rate is about 2 unit/month

The Chinese are going to upgrade their old Su27SK and J11 to J11B standards eventually while keep manufacturing J10A and J11B.

Japan ASDF

Main strength:

F15J: Japan built F-15 Eagle under license from US. No BVR Active Homing AAM.

Currently, Japan F15J is undergoing Japan-Multi-Stage Improvement Program

Japan-Multi-Stage Improvement Program

According to [3], J-MSIP includes:

(1) after 1987:

(a)Central computer improvement CP-1075A/AYK
(b)Armament Control Set (??)
(c) "The new programmable armament control set (PACS) with a multi-purpose color display (MPCD) for expanded weapons control, monitoring, and release capabilities featured a modern touch screen that allowed the pilot to talk to his weapons. A data transfer module (DTM) set provided pre-programmed information that customized the jet to fly the route the pilot had planned using mission planning computers" -- quote from FAS info on US MSIP.
(d)Engine improvement to F100-IHI-220E with Digital Electronic Engine Contorol and Engine Monitorring System

(2) After 1995
(a) Radar modification to APG-63(V)1 standard
(b) Improved J/ALQ-8 ECM
(c) Improved ejection seat system

(2) Weapon integration
AAM-3 IR
AAM-4 ARH
AAM-5 IIR

After the upgrading, the F15J can fire AIM120 and Japan made Active homing MRAAM, similar to US F15C with APG-63(V)1 Radar

For the comparison: China is upgrading their old Su27 fleet while making the new improved J11B and J10A. Japan is only upgrading their old F15J to US F15C standards but no new units enter service

Shotgun SG

What about the Japanese Indegenous figther? F2 or something?? Any capability comarisons there?

Heard that the US was interested in some parts of the phased array radar system on the F-2.

38 SG

Here are some good links for reference:

F-15J and F-15DJ for Japan

JAPAN CONCERNED ABOUT CHINA'S MILITARY BUILD-UP

And the introduction for the Chinese Sukhois from US think tank- Strategycenter:

Russian Or Chinese Sukhois?

( the original article is too long, I just extract the part we concern)

Several sources at the show noted that there is no indication that China and Russia have resolved their conflict over the means of China acquisition of future Sukhoi fighters. Will it be by purchase from Russia or upgrading in Russia, or will it involve a "Sincized" Sukhoi to be developed and produced in China? Since early 2004 deliveries of KnAAPO-produced Su-27SK/J-11 "kits" for the Shenyang Aircraft Company have been halted. . A source at the show noted that of the 105 kits reported deliveredout of a 1996 contract that called for 20080 to 100 have been built. A Chinese source has recently noted that up to 100 have been built. Sukhoi has been heavily marketing its upgrade package called the Su-27SMK, which features radar, avionic and weapon upgrades, but the PLA has not shown great interest.

Instead, China has been quite visibly developing its own version of the J-11 using the basic Su-27 airframe, but with a Chinese multi-mode radar, a new Chinese turbofan engine, plus new Chinese weapons and avionics. Shenyangs intention to take this route has been evident from models on display at headquarters building since at least 2002. Comparing opinions at this years show to those at the 2003 MAKS, the Chinese are developing more confidence in their abilities to manufacture the radar and engines to make their indigenized J-11 a success. Between the two shows, moreover, many Russian assessments of the time it will take them to succeed have been reduced from 10 years to 5 years.

Russian engine makers appear quite familiar with the degree of progress China is making in its WS-10A advanced turbofan program, which seeks to make an engine slightly more powerful than the Saturn/Alyuka AL-31 that powers the Su-27. One source noted that China is still facing problems reducing the weight of the WS-10As primary and secondary compressors. In 2004 a Russian source noted the WS-10A was not meeting thrust goals, but that the engine might still end up in production. These delays have led the Chinese to hedge: they signed a contract in June for delivery of 100 AL-31FNs for the Chengdu J-10, to be delivered before the end of 2006. According to Russian reports this number could grow to 150 more for a total of 250. Another source indicated that while China is developing its own thrust-vector technology for this engine, it may still end up buying the Russian thrust vector system for the Russian engines it purchases.

Russian fighter radar manufacturers are also very familiar with their Chinese counterparts, having sold them many radars, or entered into co-development or consulting arrangements over the last decade. One source noted that China might need another five years to move to production of a new multi-mode radar suitable for its J-11 program.

38 SG

F2 is the biggest joke in modern fighter jet history if u ask me Laughing

1)An AESA radar only can see 37Km
2) 4 ASM under the wing then make the frame crack~
3) A price tag near the cost of JSF but performance worse than F16C
4) a total investment of 10 billion USD but ended up only 70+ unit enter service. Because of the dismay, the Japan already stop the F2 programme

That's why I prefer to not mentioning them~ Wink

Lance_han SG

i hate to sae tis, but it looks like china is more like buying weapons for all action and no show..? Rolling Eyes

archon1234 SG

The J10 is a potent weapon platform that could seriously upset the air power balance in Far East. If you are familiar with the F16 development history, u would know that the Isrealis came up with designing a low cost plane Lavi using F16 design technologies in late 1970 to early 1980. But there is one major different, the Lavi has a canard and delta wings just like the F16XL that USAF was evaluating against F15E.

Now we know that Lavi was technical a success as the flight characteristic was good. We even know that F16XL was even a greater success, the detailed is available in the following site below.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article1.htm

Thus, it is not hard to imagine how good the J10 flight characteristic. J10 would be a unstable airframe. In mid to late 1990s, the chinese fly-by-wire tech had been refined from both Soviet and Isreal help since the 2nd J10 prototype crashed in the test flight. The Chinese has been very tight lipped in J10, instead they chose to publicize the JF17. The JF17 is a good airframe which is a entry level for today air superiority role. Thus, the true capability of J10 (early version), with russian fine-tuning, would at least match the F16 Block 50. Radar, fire control system, ECM and on-board flight computer are the few advantages that US F16 now.

Shotgun SG

Not really, the J10 might not be able to compare with a Block 50 F-16. Saw some pictures of the cockpit before, it didn have Colored LCDs. Hence most probably lack of digital moving maps. In addition to that, it probably lacks data link of any sort. Still trying to verify that.

In an image released, their MFD are still at least a good 5-8 years behind the most modern fighter avionics, where color displays are already playing an important role in situation awareness.

I would compare their moving map system... similar to only a block 30 falcon.

coolant SG

Originally posted by archon1234:

The Chinese has been very tight lipped in J10, instead they chose to publicize the JF17. The JF17 is a good airframe which is a entry level for today air superiority role. Thus, the true capability of J10 (early version), with russian fine-tuning, would at least match the F16 Block 50. Radar, fire control system, ECM and on-board flight computer are the few advantages that US F16 now. [/b]

I think JF17 not so bad at all Very Happy

The F-18-type LERX and JSFstyle DSI (Air intake), cute anyway~

JF17 Fighter

coolant SG

Emmm, Maybe need to think again Wink

http://www.funnylynx.com/wcUp/UpLoadFile/200592174641577.jpg
( pc too big, open it in new window)

Shotgun SG

I'm sorry, is this really the j10 cockpit? Last I checked, the flight stick was still inbetween the legs.

In anycase, I am not surprised if they had advanced the MFDs.

This is what I saw on SinoDefence.com

COCKPIT

The J-10's cockpit is fitted with three flat-panel liquid crystal multifunction displays (MFDs), including one colour MFD, wide field-of-view head-up display (HUD), and possibly helmet-mounted sight (HMS). It is not know whether the HMS is the basic Ukrainian Arsenel HMS copied by China's Luoyang Avionics, or a new helmet display featured briefly at the 2000 Zhuhai air show.

The pilot manipulates the J-10 by the Iron Bird quadruple (four channels) digital fly-by-wire (FBW) system. The pilot is also aided by advanced autopilot and air data computer.

coolant SG

Sinodefense.com is an internet based speculator same as you and me. My photo is the latest release from the 2005 Beijing Airshow currently holding in Beijing.

Sinodefense,coms info as it said is based on 2000 Zhuhai Airshow, Now its year 2005. In 5 years many things can happen~

Shotgun SG

True that. So I guess it is China's aerospace is indeed picking up.

Problem is, they are so tightly shut about their modernization that we can't really tell how good they are already.

coolant SG

Speculation can well be 1 of the fun for military nuts I think Laughing

Or put it in a good word: Analysis Wink

38 SG

One great advantage China enjoys over the rest 2 east Asia powerhouses is the much stronger and complicate Chinese Cruise Missile Portfolio than that of either Japan or S.Korea.

China is the only Asian country developed the " Tomahawk " style long range Land attack cruise missile (LACM)which is very difficult to intercept because of its low fly profile and low visibility.

And from the below article, one can see how dramatic the Chinese developments in their Cruise Missiles( Mainly Anti-ship Missiles)

Chinese Cruise Missile Portfolio Expands

tripwire SG

the JF-17 looks like a modified F-5E

coolant SG

Originally posted by tripwire:
the JF-17 looks like a modified F-5E

Laughing

Looking on is Italian Vice Defense Minister ( In Picture, uniformed) , he must wonder how he could secure the deal of selling his Grifo radar to JF17 in face of more and more challenging Chinese made avionics and Radar