RBS 70

SpecOps87 SG · 2005-09-14T22:29:40+00:00

I believe it is possible to use ATGMs to knock out unsuspecting hovering helicopters. For fixed wing aircraft… a bit hard. ATGM tend to be a bit heavier and...

SpecOps87 SG

Hi all, as we noe the RBS 70 is one of the Anti-Air weapons used by the RSAF's ADA. Well, read from many websites that it is almost next to impossible to shake it off once the laser is locked onto it. Well, are there any methods to counter the treat from the RBS 70?

Since the RBS 70 Blk II, has a range of around 7km, does an aircraft that has been tracked and fired upon, once realising the missile launh,turn tail and pull a 180 before punching full afterburners and jetting out of range have a chance to escape from it?

sgFish SG

if you can't break lock, next best thing to do is outrun it

most anti air missiles only have maximum maneuverability in the first few seconds of their flight, when the rocket motor is burning at maximum thrust. after that, the missile just rides on its momentum to the target.

by placing a missile on the aircraft's beam (that means the pilot puts the missile on his aircraft's 3/9 (o clock) line), it forces the missile to expend a lot of kinetic energy, as missiles engage in lead pursuit, meaning they fly to a point in front of the aircraft's flight path so that it will fly in a straight line to the aircraft's predicted point when the missile impacts.

the aircraft can also fly low, as the air is denser at lower altitudes, the missile's motor does not burn as efficiently as it would at higher altitudes.

as the missile is in the pilot's sights, he should execute a sharp 9G break turn into the missile, and if done at the right time, the missile should either break lock, or be unable to sustain the tighter G's it has to pull to maintain lead pursuit on the fighter, and will cause it to miss.

cheeze SG

the missile must very near for you to acquire it visually. the only time you know of a missile launch is during the initial launch.

so to break into the missile is not as simple as it is, you have to see it to manouevre against it, by the time its usually too late. its more of a last ditch manoevure

main thing is to stay away from the WEZ of the SAM sites. of if cannot. just plug your burners and run through as fast and as low so your crossing rate is too fast for the gunners to track and fire

Shotgun SG

Okay, the RBS 70 is a laser guided, SAM.

A surveillance radar picks up the target, and the operator guides a laser beam for the missile.

Its not easy to defeat such a system, cos there will be no warnings give when the missile is launched. The Radar Warning Recievers won't pick anything up other than the surveillance radar. In otherwords the pilot wont know what hit him.

However, if the target is lucky, and knows that the missile was launched at him, and from which direction, his best chance would be diving for the deck. The objective for hitting the deck is to break line of sight from the operator's designator, hence causing the missile to lose the beam.

If the higher the aircraft is from low altitudes, the more unlikely it is for the target to evade.

SpecOps87 SG

Well, quite agree that with what is being said so far about diving the jet and thus breaking the firer's line of sight and thus ability to track the jet with the missile. But is there no other way to like jam and confuse the missile?

I understand that for heatseekers like the Stinger,Mistral they can be defeated by Flares while radar-guided missiles like the I-Hawk and Patriot can be defeated by chaff, but is there any way at all to avoid laser tracking SAMs like the RBS 70?

Shotgun SG

Not that I know of. Most aircraft won't have a clue when they've been targetted by a laser. Hence, they'd get shot without knowing what happened.

Besides, RBS 70 on fixed wing aircraft is kinda extreme I feel. High speeds, and low altitudes make it a bitch for operators to track. I feel its better off tracking helicopters.

Advantage of the RBS70 is that, u can use it against ground vehicles too! =D

cheeze SG

The Pk of these SHORADs in general are quite low, so i guess mostly there won't only just be 1 fired, prob a couple to guarantee a 100% Pk.

RBS 70 is passive right since it doesn't emit any signals while it is tracking, so only way is to defeat the missile before it is even fired.
Basically don't get into the missile envelope if you have intel. If not next best way is to spoil the tracking solution or make it difficult for the guy to continue lasing you lo...

Shotgun SG

Ah, here is the problem with ADS such as the RBS70. They are mobile.

They can be repositioned frequently to "outdate" enemy intelligence. Even if u wack out their surveillance radars, there are probably spares to take over. If well camouflaged, they can be very hard to spot, unless the target decides to turn on its radar.

SpecOps87 SG

So in other words…there is no definite wat of making such a SAM lose the track on the target aircraft right? How about if the aircraft is coated with a form or silvery reflective material?And also are aircrafts like the F117A Stealth Fighter and the B2 Spirit Stealth Bomber affected by such weapon systems?

spencer99 SG

the RBS70 is a "beam rider"... basically it will follow the laser beam from the Lauch/guidance unit....

Doesn't need to "reflect off" any surface....

Shotgun SG

Silvery surfaces on an aircraft would not be helpful. It makes it even easier for an enemy aircraft, or SAM operator on the ground to make visual contact with the aircraft.

The paint scheme of an aircraft generally will reflect its primary role. Green painted ones are generally strike/attack aircraft. Green so that another aircraft fly above it might not see it flying at low altitudes..

Grey or blue schemes are usually the fighter/interceptors. Painted for air combat at medium to high altitudes.

Silvery painted ones... will be seen just about anywhere.

insouciant SG

Actually if the RBS70 is so effective, then why did we buy the mistral and the igla? If you say it's not so portable, we don't really manpack any of them, prefering to mount them on vehicles.

I guess the problem is that they are not fire and forget?

Fatum SG

pssss: there ARE igla teams who walk somewhere in changi ... near the place where the place were the bapoks like to hang out .... and an abandoned hospital where silly singaporeans like to go to wet their pants

Shotgun SG

No one system can be effective on its own. RBS70 used in conjunction with other systems would of course be more effective.

Eg, the RBS70 cannot be used on targets that move out of its Line of Sight or visual range. Eg, low fog, smoke would hamper its effectiveness. Basically, the dudes in charged of AD would decide what kinda combination they need to deny the enemy of which portion of the airspace.

Not for us geeks to find out

wd1 SG

a laser-guided missile ISN'T by any means a passive system. you have to point a laser at the aircraft - if someone points a laser at you you will obviously know right. cutting-edge jets nowadays carry laser-warning receivers that do just that. once the plane is lased, LWR will sound a warning to the pilot.

pilot should start jinking aggressively to make life hard for the laser tracker, and dive for the deck to break line of sight from the missile. or if the plane has one of those new antimissile laser turrets - easy!

sgFish SG

antimissile laser turrets? Shocked

Lance_han SG

hannor Laughing treating tis as an indication, the US is far from deploying Lasers in the field, they're onli in the prototype stage le...where have? Shocked

Shotgun SG

Sorry, im seriously not aware of anti missile laser turrets of any sort thats currently deployed.

I doubt most jets carry laser warning recievers. As Jets are really the last targets that would get shot at by a laser guided system. The Su-34 "platypus" apparently has it, cos its primarily a strike aircraft.

Tanks carry laser warning recievers as part of their active defense system.

Perhaps slower moving strike aircraft ought to carry it.

Like i said, i think systems such as the RBS70 is best used against helos.

LazerLordz SG

The Israelis have introduced a small anti-missile laser system for airliners.It involves a laser beam illuminating the incoming missile to fry the circuitry.

Northrop, BAE Developing Laser-Based Systems
Analysts consider on-board jammers - known as directional infrared countermeasures or DIRCM - to be the most promising emerging military technology. The leading players in this field are Northrop, BAE and state-owned Israeli company, Rafael Armament Development Authority Ltd.

Given that airliners fly over densely populated areas, DIRCM systems have the safety advantage of being passive. Aviation authorities like the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration may be alarmed by the use of systems that eject flares to deflect missiles, say industry sources.

Both Northrop and BAE consider laser-based DIRCM systems as an effective solution for airliners. Once an incoming infrared missile is detected by an onboard warning system, a laser-beam is directed onto the missile to jam its guidance systems.

Burt Keirstead, head of BAE Systems' Homeland Security Aircraft Defense initiative, likens the device to the trusted weapon of the Jedi Knights in the Star Wars movies: "It's like a light saber. You've got a beam coming out and it's basically deflecting it (the missile) of course," he says.

Keirstead believes missile protection systems will be fitted onto airliners over the next 5-10 years. "I think it's viable. Clearly the technology supports it," he says.

Earlier this year, Northrop Grumman's laser-based Nemesis DIRCM system was fitted onto some U.S. military aircraft like the Boeing C-17 transporter. The system is suitable for civil applications, says Northrop's Pledger.

SpecOps87 SG

Well, lets be really practical ahz...MANPADS will usually be deployed in groups, not just a single battery. Lets say they are deployed in groups of 5, that gives the firers 5 chances of hitting the target if each MANPAD of the RBS70 holds only one missile. And usually, the entire group will not fire at the same time, they will fire it at a staggered time period, once sighting the aircraft,so even if the aircrafts does have laser detection systems, will it be able to detect from which side is the missile streaking towards it? Although you may argue that firing a missile costs tens of thousands of dollars, well for say a single RBS70,it costs says SGD$50,000, 5 of those will cost a mere SGD$250,000. Imagine...SGD$250,000 to say trade with a USD$30mil. aircraft, its still worth it right? Though its difficult to track, the chances of hitting the aircraft is there.

Now lets talk about the deployment of MANPADS, I belief ADA will field a mixture of RBS 70 mounted on V200, Mistrals,Iglas, Rapier,I-Hawks and 35mm Oerlikon guns to maximize the hit probability.