Increase BMT Difficulty

last SG · 2005-04-10T12:15:50+00:00

when i say clones, i mean literally, physical clones of yourself, in the context that i mean it in, NOT sgforum clones.

quivalen SG

err okay but i still don't get you.
what does your meeting sardaukar have to do with my agreeing with some of his points?

Hellraiza SG

i have been throught both Navy and Army BMT...

though the Navy bmt module does not include field camp, and the route march is only 8km max...i can say that...the navy bmt was more physically and mentally stressful...our instructors were also from SISPEC...till now i fcuking detest them...really sadist bunch of mofos. Us smokers especially were almost treated like dogs...with the instructors hanging a cigarette like a bone. They always said that us Navy recruits have an easy life after passing out from BMT...so when they tekan us they are doing us a favour...I don't know how the current bunch of instructors are like, but my batch....curse them.

I recall one incident. We were sleeping in the middle of the night...when the fire alarm rang. All of us had to fall in for a simulated fire drill. Once we all fell in, the tekan session started. I won't say how much shit we did for fear of drawing comparisions or people talking shit...but enough to make quite a few people vomit. After that we had a water parade. When my spec walked up to me to check if my water bottle was full, (it was only less than a CM from the brim) he whacked the bottle out of my hand, it hit my face. He then picked it up and hurled it away, and told me i had 10 seconds to find my water bottle. As it was dark, i had a hard time finding it. Once my time was up he knocked the whole coy down while i was still blindly looking for it, and he still had the cheek to say, "nevermind slowly take ur time, ur friends are suffering because of you."

After the tekan session, we were ordered to change into our smartest 4 and standby cupboard in 10 mins time. Possible? Many of us had our smart 4 sleeves pulled down, cupboards messed up, beds overturned, everything in/out in 30 seconds, i think the older soldiers here know the drill...

The weird thing is, even though that night was a nightmare, i think i learned more about discipline and ESP integrity that night than in my whole life before...so i guess tekan sessions DO help to a certain extent...one huge test of mental and physical endurance...though its nothing compared to the NDU's Hell Week... Twisted Evil

[email protected] SG

lets put it this way. if u knew him fully and he was standing in front of u saying all these, u would be either inclined to laugh at him or punch him. at least he has the guts to post all these u say? hey its not too difficult to post something controversal here. I should know. I've been in more than my fair share of flame wars. But it does help when you truely believe in what you're posting here you know? Laughing

Anyways so what if BMT is getting more slack? there are plenty of opportunities to get tougher in the unit themselves. u want tough from the start, no one's stopping u from signing on.

LazerLordz SG

Your spec thinks he's Tiger Woods, with all that new-fangled eyesight.Less than a CM is not measurable by the human eye.And at night, lighting is bad, so he just wanted to knock you guys down for fun.Sadistic and undeserving to wear his stripes.

Hellraiza SG

u know whats the best thing lazerlordz?

The next morning when we were seated in the lecture room, my PS sauntered in and said, "gentlemen, last night song bo?" if i had the balls then i would have punched him. (recruit time humji lah i admit) Then my PC added, gentlemen, the firedrill tekan session is a tradition here in XXXX, tells you that ur honeymoon period in BMT is over...he still got the cheek to tell a recruit who lost his slipper while he was running to the training shed carrying the fire extinguisher, "don't go and tell ur mummy u lost ur slipper when ur sergeant tekan you okay? i give you emart break later to go buy a new pair,you can use my credit if you want."

this kind of officer pui chao nua.

quivalen SG

well it doesn't have any bearing on the discussion here so lets just leave it at that.

Anyways so what if BMT is getting more slack? there are plenty of opportunities to get tougher in the unit themselves. u want tough from the start, no one's stopping u from signing on.

looking through this thread, the 2 most common types of responses are the downright hostile and/or facetious, and "so garang? sign on lah!"

both are equally unconstructive.

might i also point out that if you were to sign on, you'd most like still undergo your bmt at BMTC so your last sentence really holds no water.

you say there's plenty of opportunities for tougher training after bmt - well why is there a need to draw the line between bmt / unit? does 3 months make a very big difference? why just because its bmt then training has to be slacker, but when u go to a unit then its ok to be tough? why not tough from the very start? if not the poor recruit is going to have a double culture shock - when he first enlists and on his first day in unit.

somebody is probably going to hop in now and say, oh, "its Bmt - BASIC military training - its only supposed to be an introduction to army life blah blah blah". well to these people i refer you to my previous post - i'm not saying we throw enlistees into a NDU hellweek, or go for a 72k route march or whatever. and i reiterate my point that the most important thing you'd get out of tougher training is not physical but rather, increased mental toughness.

lwflee SG

Originally posted by quivalen:

you say there's plenty of opportunities for tougher training after bmt - well why is there a need to draw the line between bmt / unit? does 3 months make a very big difference? why just because its bmt then training has to be slacker, but when u go to a unit then its ok to be tough? why not tough from the very start? if not the poor recruit is going to have a double culture shock - when he first enlists and on his first day in unit.

Because BMT serves to weed out the soldiers who are not suitable for those types of training. Hence some ppl get OOC, some downgrade, some get into combat vocations, and some get into service vocations.

somebody is probably going to hop in now and say, oh, "its Bmt - BASIC military training - its only supposed to be an introduction to army life blah blah blah". well to these people i refer you to my previous post - i'm not saying we throw enlistees into a NDU hellweek, or go for a 72k route march or whatever. and i reiterate my point that the most important thing you'd get out of tougher training is not physical but rather, increased mental toughness.

You have not given much details about what changes you want to make to BMT; what are the changes you are proposing? Bear in mind that many recruits were fat, pimply, hormonally charged school kids just weeks before.

LazerLordz SG

My sympathies.

quivalen SG

actually i did mention a few changes - longer route march, lengthened field camp duration.

also it'd be good if commanders were given some leeway to tekkan their men. no - tekkan isn't the right word - rather, discipline when justified.

i know this is rather like opening pandora's box - where do you draw the line at what's justifiable and all that - but what i'm angling at is to get rid of this saf-hotline-culture where the moment the recruit is made to do something he doesn't like, he calls the hotline, or goes crying bloody murder to his parents/uncle/grandpa/mp/maid etc. and i'm sure we all know what is most likely to happen in the event of a complaint - the commander who instituted the punishment will get his ass handed to him, regardless of whether it was justifiable or not. why? because the saf will bend over backwards to pacify parents/uncle/grandpa/maid if he/she's making a big enough ruckus.

[email protected] SG

u sure? there was a big public ruckus over the er... xtreme ill treatment of some trainees and till date the perpetrators haven't been punished yet, and its been almost 2 years since the incident. when it comes to depending on SAF to despense justice, i personally doubt if i can trust them.

lwflee SG

But how far and how long?

Personally, i think BMT as it is serves its purpose.

And i think you have to much faith in the SAF hotline. Most likely, the commander involved will get sent an email.

quivalen SG

yes, i do realise it is hard to quantify how much more will bring BMT's difficulty up to required 'level'.
but the problem right now is that commanders are more and more having to treat their men with kid gloves, for fear of stepping on someone's toes - for a regular he has his career to think about, while for an NSF he just wants to finish his 2+ years without incident and get the hell out. in both cases these guys are probably not going to have the motivation to do any more than the bare minimum. and what sort of soldiers is this handling going to turn out?

no matter what, this is still the ARMY.

as for the hotline, i would've thought that the person involved would at least have some disciplinary action taken against him. for a regular, the fear of even getting an email - taking your word for it that an email will be the end of the matter - is probably going to make him apprehensive about doing anything anywhere near stern enough to warrant an email - career, remember? while an NSF is probably going to sign some.
for example a friend of mine who was a BMTC PC once signed 7 for knocking down a recruit. i can't remember exactly the details, but my friend hardly had the recuit crawling through con wire with his ali baba on his head - it was just more than 20 pushups and i trust my friend enough to take his word that the punishment was justified. for that - 7 weekends? hardly an incentive to try instilling discipline in your men.

Sardaukar SG

Heng,I have failings,but do not make the mistake of thinking you know me fully.A single face to face meeting and you choose to judge me?Ok. Very Happy

Just make sure you keep to the topic in this thread.My failings can be aired in public on another thread or through private message,or even through MSN chatting where you can say what you want to me.can or not?

tvdog SG

BMT is to get civilians ready for more army training. BMT does not make you a soldier. It just makes you ready to be trained as a soldier.

For most people, even very fit ones, BMT is a real life-changing event.

Definitely so for me. I found it to be the toughest 3 months of my life. But I really appreaciated what it brought out in me. I was physically AND mentally a weakling. After BMT, no more.

But all the money in the world would not make me want to go through BMT again.

Was it tough?

You bet.

quivalen SG

whaaaa?

sooo....all the rifle handling, grenade throw, fire movement...all that is just, like, playing at being soldiers? or maybe just a warm-up, huh?

For most people, even very fit ones, BMT is a real life-changing event.

Definitely so for me. I found it to be the toughest 3 months of my life. But I really appreaciated what it brought out in me. I was physically AND mentally a weakling. After BMT, no more.

But all the money in the world would not make me want to go through BMT again.

Was it tough?

You bet.

so a tough bmt was beneficial, then.

tvdog SG

Someone who has learnt the multiplication tables in primary school is not ready to be an accountant.

First of all, are you or were you ever part of a combat unit? And in case you ask, I was a rifleman.

Just because someone can shoot an M16 or have thrown a grenade doesn't make him ready to be part of a real combat unit. In a real infantry unit for example everyone has a specialised job like SAW gunner, sharpshooter, M203 grenadier, LAW gunner.

And you need further training for these kinds of specialised roles.

And after you are trained in these individual skills you to back to your assigned unit and train to be a part of this larger cohesive force playing your specific role.

And then there are others who go on for OCS or specialised arms like armour, arty, Navy etc.

That's why I say, someone with just 3 months' basic training is only ready to be trained as a real soldier.

LazerLordz SG

Quivalen, please understand that BMT prepares a soldier for his vocational training, it does not prepare him for war.It's like a foundation course.IF you can make the grade, then you can move on.What do you want?For a recruit to be thrown straight into CST?I think we have enough hoo-ha over there already.Gradual training and evaluation is the way to go.Throwing people into the deep end of the pool is over.

quivalen SG

i'll thank you not to imply that i'm another armchair general or specops wannabe so common in these forums.

i've ORDed from a combat unit, ok?

Just because someone can shoot an M16 or have thrown a grenade doesn't make him ready to be part of a real combat unit. In a real infantry unit for example everyone has a specialised job like SAW gunner, sharpshooter, M203 grenadier, LAW gunner.

And you need further training for these kinds of specialised roles.

And after you are trained in these individual skills you to back to your assigned unit and train to be a part of this larger cohesive force playing your specific role.

And then there are others who go on for OCS or specialised arms like armour, arty, Navy etc.

That's why I say, someone with just 3 months' basic training is only ready to be trained as a real soldier.

now that you've elaborated i get what you're saying although u gotta realise it was pretty weird you saying that "BMT does not make you a soldier" without explaining it.

quivalen SG

if you take a look at my previous posts, i've never once suggested throwing a new recruit into anything near the deep end of the pool. in fact i've taken pains to reiterate that pretty often.

and yes, i accept tvdog's and your point that BMT is a preparation for further training. however i've also said before that my point is not to impart more technical skills to the recruit - like CST as you say - nor is it even to make the recruit particularly fit physically.

what i've always said is that the main benefit is mental - not some tangible one which will turn out an army of super-privates after 3 months. confidence in yourself is a useful thing to have, isn't it, no matter where you're posted after that. the realisation that "hey, i've managed to do something more difficult than anything i've ever done before, something i never thought possible"

G.I. Lim SG

highly very suspicious that quivalen is sarduakar himself
look at the date which quivalen sign up as a forumite and the way quivalen spells similar to equivalent
Laughing

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